An invitation to throw up?

dhmkhkk · 25 Feb 2018

Hello there,

I know it's a horribly cheesy sentence, but it's the grammar behind that I'm interested in. Here it goes:

その娘の耳が穢れるような戯言を吐かないてもらおうか
I am particularly interested in the 吐かないてもらおう part. It probably means something like "could you not vomit/retch such nonsense which soil that girl's ears", yet I don't see how 吐かないてもらおう is built grammatically.

1. What kind of form is 吐かないて? For the てもらう form it should be 吐かなくてもらう, I hope. (?) I've never come across a negative form of てもらう.
2. Where is the imperative "please don't"? Or could it be that the sentence is wrong (it is very possible) and it is 吐かないで? If yes, why もらおう?
3. Again, why もらおう? Why volitional? Isn't the volitional form like an invitation "let's not go vomit out such nonsense [together]"?

Thanks in advance!

Majestic · 25 Feb 2018

1. I think you have a typo in there. Isn't it 吐かないでもらおうか ? If so, this is a very common construction. ～ないでください、 ~ないでもらう etc. The で is the conjugation of the preceding verb.
2. Yes, as you said in the end of your sentence (and as I mentioned above), the で is for 吐かないで. So 吐かないでもらう means literally "receive your not spitting out". もらう indicates the speaker is taking a challenging stance towards the person saying the "vile things". In English we might say, "I'll not have you saying such things", but Japanese its not unusual to say "I'll have you not saying such things".
3. Again, the もらう indicates the speaker's intention to challenge or assert dominance over the person he is challenging. Compare to the more polite "ください" (please give me). もらう (I will receive) is more forceful and challenging. The person saying this is not asking for a favor, but is making a demand.

Its a common construction. To my mind, the kanji used in the sentence are actually more high-level than the grammar.

Toritoribe · 25 Feb 2018

dhmkhkk said:
For the てもらう form it should be 吐かなくてもらう, I hope.

I've already explained you about the difference between ～ないで and ～なくて.
~てform of the adjectives | Japan Forum

As in my explanation in the thread above, 吐かなくてもらう would be interpreted as 吐かないので(cause/reason)、もらう.

dhmkhkk said:
Again, why もらおう? Why volitional? Isn't the volitional form like an invitation "let's not go vomit out such nonsense [together]"?

The invitation "let's together" is not the only one meaning of the volitional form. It shows the speaker's strong volition there. That's exactly why this form is called "volitional form".

Now you can see a fact that Genki is not enough to cover Japanese grammar, right?:emoji_wink:

dhmkhkk · 25 Feb 2018

Thanks so much you guys! @Majestic

Majestic said:
In English we might say, "I'll not have you saying such things", but Japanese its not unusual to say "I'll have you not saying such things".

This really helps me to understand better, thank you!! I cannot find anything about ~ないでもらう in the internet, unfortunately... and I haven't learnt it yet. At least Genki hastn't covered it. ～ないでください id a very easy expression indeed.

Toritoribe said:
I've already explained you about the difference between ～ないで and ～なくて

That's true, sorry, I've completely forgotten about it. なくてもらう would be wrong here.

Toritoribe said:
Now you can see a fact that Genki is not enough to cover Japanese grammar, right?

I was really hoping you would not say that... :/ It's like my last hope just died. I will try learning grammar on the side, but I must say - now comes a little bit of whining - I am a full time employee at a pretty stressful job with maybe 2 hours per day which I can dedicate to my hobby. And I really don't want to come home from work and get to the books with exercises and tests... I need some stress release after the ****** working day, and I find my peace by losing myself in the world of colorful characters talking a beautiful language. Please don't take this away from me.

So, the whining part is over. Would you say ~ないでもらう form is more from the intermediate level? Because ～ないでください is definitely elementary. てもらう is also elementary, I guess just Genki didn't explain too much when which negative form should be used.

Toritoribe · 25 Feb 2018

～ないでもらう is just the negative version of ～てもらう, so I don't think it's intermediate. However, negative-imperative-like usage of ～ないでもらおう（か） in that example would be indeed a bit confusing. ～ないでくれ would make more sense, maybe?

dhmkhkk · 26 Feb 2018

Yes, I am familiar with ～ないでくれ. The form もらおう is indeed new to me. I guess I also haven't completely realized that ~てもらう is translated like "have somebody do something", not "receive somebody doing something for me". Hm, I guess you could say it's a little bit like causative form in meaning?

Toritoribe · 26 Feb 2018

It's different from causative. It's more likely a kind of sarcastic usage that a polite expression changes to a strong demand like the imperative form as a result.

lanthas · 26 Feb 2018

してもらう - I'll receive this service (because I'll ask someone for it, or better yet, they'll do it on their own initiative)
してもらおう - I'm gonna receive this service (because I have arrogantly and one-sidedly decided that I will, so you better give it to me)

In a similar vein, instead of issuing a direct order (あの壺を触るな！ Do not touch that vase!), you can state its result as a fact (あの壺を触らない！You will not touch that vase!).

dhmkhkk said:
I find my peace by losing myself in the world of colorful characters talking a beautiful language. Please don't take this away from me.

You'll have to find a balance, because it's only through study away from those characters that you'll learn to understand what they're saying

dhmkhkk · 26 Feb 2018

Thank you, lanthas! Another thing which is new to me - dictionary form + な used for imperative. I have heard it before and I understand from the context that it's imperative, but I haven't learnt about it in a book. Even though come on, imperative is one of the absolute basics of any language. It can't be that it's an intermediate topic, right?

That's right, the balance. I will do my best to find some time for books, but I also think I can learn pretty much from watching/listening. Imagine people who move to another country and have to learn the language from scratch without books. And they learn it. I did it as well. I had really, really basic knoweldge of German and I learnt the rest 90% of the grammar by listening to people and trying to talk to them. I don't see why it shouldn't work with Japanese like this as well. But then again, maybe I'm too optimistic

lanthas · 26 Feb 2018

Yes, dictionary form + な creates a negative imperative; not to be confused with masu-stem + な which creates a positive one. (This is a shorter version of the masu-stem + なさい pattern which you should already know.)

The attached dialogue line demonstrates that ～てもらおう doesn't always have to be a demand - it can also show the speaker's intention to take an offer that was already standing. (In this case, an exchange student opting to take part in a cooking class)

Toritoribe · 26 Feb 2018

And also note that "dictionary form + な" doesn't always have to be a negative imperative. It can show highly probable inference, or even can be a soft positive imperative. You need to interpret the meaning from the context. The pitch accents are different with each other in these expressions, so you might be able to differentiate among them in conversations, though.
e.g.
来るな
Don't come!（＝来てはいけない）
They/You must come.（＝きっと来るだろう/来るに違いない）
You will come, won't you?（masculine version of soft positive demand by asking confirmation, just like 来るよね？)

dhmkhkk said:
Another thing which is new to me - dictionary form + な used for imperative. I have heard it before and I understand from the context that it's imperative, but I haven't learnt about it in a book. Even though come on, imperative is one of the absolute basics of any language. It can't be that it's an intermediate topic, right?

One of the reasons why those kinds of strong imperative forms are not taught in textbooks is probably because such strong expressions are usually not used in formal situations where learners need to learn at first. Instead, you would have already learned the polite negative demand such like ～てはいけません or ～ないでください in Genki, right?

dhmkhkk said:
I had really, really basic knoweldge of German and I learnt the rest 90% of the grammar by listening to people and trying to talk to them.

As I already pointed out previously, Japanese language, including grammar and vocabulary, is quite different from Indo-European languages you would be familiar with. I bet you can't learn it just from song lyrics or watching/listening, without knowing 90% of the grammar.

dhmkhkk · 27 Feb 2018

Ok, agreed. I just downloaded "the intermediate approach..." textbook and there are quite a few grammar points which are useful and new to me. So I will keep learning that. On the other hand, there are a lot of expressions which are kind of new but are really logical and would be understandable from the context. But to filter out those I should go through the book page by page.

Btw @Toritoribe I never got to thank you for bringing Genki into my life. If I hadn't bought it when you told me to, I probably would still be running around in circles guessing every second word. Now I sucessfully watched 1 episode of an anime and it wasn't all that terribly difficult. Well, except that もらおう So, thank you very much for your recommendation :emoji_pray::emoji_pensive:

An invitation to throw up?

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