Afghanistan War !

[Haruspex]

Before you talk about human rights can you tell me what is terrorism ?

What if the women accept the Islamic Rules ?
why do you want to force people to Apply the western laws ? people are free to live as they want.
See in France the government Prevent Hijab !! who is against the human rights ?
No one will listen to you if you dont listen to him.

Now, France, like the rest of the EU is bound to follow the European Convention on Human Rights an international treaty, which is universally recognised throughout the EU. There is no reason to look for the French version as it matches with the English completely. Anyway, here is what it provides, Article 9:

[FONT=verdana,geneva]1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,geneva]
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,geneva]2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.[/FONT]

​

Note that this is a qualified right. Human Rights doesn't mean you can do whatever you please. There is a very legitimate aim in prohibiting religious apparel in a number of institutions. By doing so, the legislature of a country is protecting the 'rights and freedoms of others.', it is essentially preventing people from taking a holier than thou approach and terrorising others in such a manner. It tackles peer pressure.

Imagine a girl of Arabic descent who wishes to live her life as an atheist or a very 'mild' Muslim who doesn't want to wear any form of clothing. Or imagine a Christian person who doesn't want to wear a cross, contrary to what is accepted in his or her community. In both cases there is a high chance of being pestered by other, more religious, members of the community who manifest their beliefs in a very flagrant and obvious manner.

In an environment where religious apparel is prohibited, the chance of the above happening is much lower.

Again, another legitimate aim is the protection of secularity. The Case of Leyla Sahin v Turkey deals with this in depth (the wearing and prohibition of Muslim headgear in Turkish educational institutions, to be more precise), and its a pretty good read actually, but in any case, states have the right to protect secular values for us all, and such was the case in Turkey. The Strasbourg court (ECtHR) ruled that yes, the protection of secular values is an entirely legitimate aim enshrined in Turkey's constitution. As Tsuyoiko already stated, these are not laws specifically targeting Muslims, they deal with religion generally. In a secular atmosphere everyone is expected to act in a modest way and keep his or her beliefs away from the rest of the community. There is nothing inherently anti-Muslim here.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

Apologies for my somewhat offtopic comments

There is a very legitimate aim in prohibiting religious apparel in a number of institutions. By doing so, the legislature of a country is protecting the 'rights and freedoms of others.',

I agree that the aim of this law is to protect the rights and freedoms of others, but I think it goes too far. I think it's enough that the institution itself rejects the display of religious symbols, without requiring individuals to suppress the expression of their own beliefs. I would oppose any law or dress code that prevents people from wearing what they want, whether this be religious symbols, jeans or Cannibal Corpse T-shirts ;-)

 

[Hezam]

I agree that the aim of this law is to protect the rights and freedoms of others, but I think it goes too far. I think it's enough that the institution itself rejects the display of religious symbols, without requiring individuals to suppress the expression of their own beliefs. I would oppose any law or dress code that prevents people from wearing what they want, whether this be religious symbols, jeans or Cannibal Corpse T-shirts

perfect answer...but !! we are out topic lol

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"People who see their country destroying will not be Grateful but if they see Development & Reconstruction projects they will belive that US came to help."

So why doesn't Saudi Arabia use some of its oil riches to help their Muslim brothers in Afghanistan?

 

[Hezam]

Because US won't allow Saudi Arabia,they will say "You support the terrorism"
they still say "Taliban recieve money from gulf countries" !!
the real goal is not to help Afghani people,they want to be close to Russia and China..

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

No, our real goal is to eliminate the people who murdered 3,000 Americans on 9/11/01.

Our last president was a fool who, like an undisciplined child, became distracted by Iraq before he finished his first project. He let the terrorists slip through his fingers when he could have had them at Tora Bora. Now the job in Afghanistan has become ten times more difficult.

But I didn't ask you why Saudi Arabia isn't sending money to the terrorists. I'm asking why you're not helping the Afghanis by donating funds to help rebuild roads, hospitals, etc. I'm sure the US won't stand in the way of such humanitarian efforts.

 

[Hezam]

I understand what you said but the US Government killed thousands civils Afghanis,as i said Taliban is different than Al-Qaeda...Taliban is a real government but the American Media says the opposite.
Like Iraq,they Lied to All people,they said Saddam has Nuclear weapon but the real reason is the Oil.

No one here will listen to the US while they support Israel,i am telling you what all or most people here think.
Why does US risk their Security and progress for some Occupiers ?!

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"I understand what you said but the US Government killed thousands civils Afghanis."

As an American, I deeply regret the deaths of innocent civilians. In war, unfortunately, giving shelter to or even living near the combatants is very dangerous. I don't for a minute believe that my government is deliberately targeting civilians, as that would only be self-defeating.

"as i said Taliban is different than Al-Qaeda...Taliban is a real government."

The Taliban were the real government. They refused to hand over the 9/11 terrorists for justice, after being given every opportunity to do so. They joined our enemies by giving aid and shelter to them. Sometimes real governments go bad and must be overthrown. The Nazis were once the real governing party of Germany.

"Like Iraq,they Lied to All people,they said Saddam has Nuclear weapon but the real reason is the Oil."

Yes, to America's shame, the Bush administration lied about those things. I am personally embarrassed to have voted for Bush in 2000; I believed his lies then (e.g. "no foreign nation building"). At least I knew better by the next election in 2004. But I don't think the Iraq invasion was only about oil. Does Afghanistan have oil?

"No one here will listen to the US while they support Israel,i am telling you what all or most people here think. Why does US risk their Security and progress for some Occupiers ?!"

In turn, most Americans don't understand why your people wish to connect Israel to every other problem in the Middle East. Yes, we recognize that the Israel/Palestine problem is a big one -- but what does Israel have to do with Afghanistan? Why do Muslims hate Jews, and Jews hate Muslims? Especially when they share the same or similar root cultures and religions?

They both have the same holy city, so why can't they share it? Isn't Jerusalem big enough to hold a mosque and a synagogue? There even ought to be room to squeeze in a Christian church, since that city is also holy to Christians.

I think most Americans believe that the Jews should have their homeland, and the Palestinians too. But we know that Israel is the only nation in the Middle East that is our reliable ally, and our news media show suicide attacks by Muslim terrorists, not Jewish terrorists.

These ancient feuds and ethnic hatreds are largely beyond our understanding, I think. Most Americans do NOT see any connection to Iraq or Afghanistan. For this reason, I generally do not support the US meddling in the Middle East. However, I did support our invasion of Afghanistan and overthrow of the Taliban, because that nation and government harbored the terrorists who attacked us.

 

[Haruspex]

No, our real goal is to eliminate the people who murdered 3,000 Americans on 9/11/01.

If victory ever comes to America, it will be Pyrrhic. America's response was disproportionate and injurious. Its like accidentally dropping a valuable earring into the ocean and then organising a search expedition.

Taliban

can get to ****. Government or not, they're extremists. Extremists are not entitled to authority.


I agree with Roland that countries need to be broken up and viewed as what they are, countries. There is no pan-Arabic or pan-Islamic state. It is time for Muslim countries to think of themselves as states. Every country has her own cross, and helping each other is fine, but Middle Eastern countries often forget about their borders. Don't misunderstand me, I have no problem with healthy solidarity, but this whole Israel business Roland was talking about, is too much.

 

[Hezam]

they're extremists. Extremists are not entitled to authority

This is the way Afghani people live their life...!

It is time for Muslim countries to think of themselves as states. Every country has her own cross, and helping each other is fine, but Middle Eastern countries often forget about their borders

I understand your point but we dont care about the borders since we are like one country,Borders have been made by UK and France..etc.

but this whole Israel business Roland was talking about, is too much.

i did not understand what you mean by this above !! can you explain please ?

 

[Mycernius]

This is the way Afghani people live their life...!

This was the way they were forced to live their lives under the Taliban. The Taliban were Pashtun in origin and when the took control they replaced non-pashtun with pashtun, not a good way to go. They regarded shia as non-muslims and the Hazara, that make up 10% of Afghanistan, as non-muslims. Then there was their strict intpretation of Sharia law, one of the strictest in the islamic world. By the time of 9/11 they were not a popular government in their own country. Afghans who could. fled the country, this included an hijacking of a plane to the UK, to escape them. Nowadays most of the Taliban are not afghans, but are muslims and fundies from other islamic countries, mainly Pakistan.

Why on earth you are defending these religious extremists is beyond me? All I assume is that you haven't gone and looked up how corrupt and dictatorial they were when in power.

 

[Hezam]

Now Pakistan ! and then Syria,Sudan.Yemen,Saudi Arabia....!!!!
See this please :

 

[janoun2003]

Alwys the poor poepl pay the stupidity of the politisian

 

[Hezam]

Now is anyone still confused about Taliban or Afghanistan war ?
Iraq war is very clear,Also Palestine,and i think Afghanistan war is clear for who searched and read.

Unfortunatly Obama,you disapointed us.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Unfortunately, Obama does not represent Saudi Arabians.

Incidentally, I keep reading that al Qaida still gets most of its funding from Saudis.

 

[hideway]

Al Quaeda is still not vanquished from Afghanistan and Pakistan, why would Obama leave?

 

[Hezam]

Unless USA & Allies stop Israel and leave Iraq,of course there will be alot of fund from different sides.
The funny thing is that some people think that their government is fightingfor justice !
I wont be suprised if the US use the nuclear bomb in Afghanistan.

 

[Emoni]

I wont be suprised if the US use the nuclear bomb in Afghanistan.

... uhhh really? You think they are going to NUKE Afghanistan? Why on earth would they do this? You really need to consider reading a bit more and basing your opinions on things rather than emotional opinions only.

 

[Hezam]

Do you know how much bombs they threw on Afghanistan ?
It's more than nuclear bomb,also in Iraq it's worse than Nuce bomb.
See how Germany solders did,they killed many civils in one time afew days ago...

 

[Emoni]

Do you know how much bombs they threw on Afghanistan ?
It's more than nuclear bomb,also in Iraq it's worse than Nuce bomb.
See how Germany solders did,they killed many civils in one time afew days ago...

Ok...

1) None of this answered what I asked you.
2) What is your point? Are you saying that "If you add up the bombs it is worse than nuclear weapons?" If that is so, you need to review the effects of nuclear weapons.
3) Where are you getting this information? You never cite anything, or even give it any background or context.
4) What do German soldiers have to do with anything?
5) Again, what is your point? Do you have one? If so, SUPPORT IT.

I'm sorry but the the argument you are showing here is absolutely absurd, immature, totally lacking in reason and support, and ultimately doesn't even connect coherently.

There isn't any logic behind what you said. "Because X number of bombs were used, even though they were of a different type and effect than nuclear bombs, even though I'm comparing them to nuclear bombs, that means the US will nuke Afghanistan!" and that civilians being killed was apparently as simple as "Some German soldiers just decided to shoot a few." is absolutely shameful. These are major issues, and you are barely giving them any sort of reasonable thought when you make these statements.

Look, I'm actually AGAINST war and AGAINST nuclear weapons, and I would likely be on your side on issues like this, but you keep posting absolutely idiotic claims and statements based on either extremely questionable sources, or absolutely NO source for your rather emotional opinions.

You're not stupid, and I know you are against killing in general, but to treat these issues in the way that you are is extremely dangerous and ignorant. Please start investigating these issues more deeply before you post loose and emotionally grounded posts all the time. Otherwise, you are spreading misinformation that actually causes HARM to the very people you misguidedly feel that you are helping through your posts.

Thanks.

 

[Hezam]

It sounds like i made a mistake !
OK Sorry,of course this will lead to nothing but all what i wanted to say is US and Allies must leave Afghanistan and solve the main issue in the middle East.
Sorry again.

 

[Mycernius]

Leaving Afghanistan is a realy bad idea. Unfortunately because of this war leaving the country will ensure that it WILL degenerate into anarchy with sections of the country being controlled by warlords of various religious and political idealogies. To be realistic nobody, including the majority of Afghans, want the Taliban back. These religious fanatics managed to drag the country back to the dark ages when in power.

The only way is to try and stabilise the country. Not easy, as the government is power is corrupt and really needs a change, but who to? The entire is a headache for not only the allies, but the international community as a whole. It would help if Afghanistans neighbours would help, but Pakistan has its own problems with the Taliban and Iran is so fervently anti-west that it could easily end up with a hostile neighbour full of islamic fundies that would threaten them because of their own short-sightedness.

 

[Hezam]

I understand what you mean but do you agree with me about the main problem witch is Israel ?
If the west stop supporting that criminal system and try seriously to solve it,there will be nothing called Al-Qaeda since they appeared in the last 10 years.
All the time Taliban were not the problem,it was Al-Qaeda..
To be honest,Israel is the western hand in the middle east and Al-Qaeda is a result.
Read the history,it's very simple..And dont forget that US supported Al-Qaeda when they were fightng against Russians.

I my self,i studied in a religious high school and Ben laden visited it in the past when he was fighting the russians.
The Moderator who met Ben laden personally explained why Osama turned to Extrem man,We refused Ben Laden,It's the westerns turn to refuse Israel or at least to force them to back to 1967 borders.
Am i wrong?

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Why is it Israel that's to blame for every problem in the Middle East? Why isn't it Iran, Libya, Pakistan, or Somalia? Americans see NO connection between Israel and the goings-on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Do you really support terrorism as a way to achieve political ends? Do you think it's effective? All it does is turn Americans against Muslims and toward our only reliable ally in the ME.

I can think of only one scenario for the US to nuke Afghanistan. Many of us are afraid that one day the terrorists will detonate a nuke in one of our cities. If that happens, then we probably will retaliate against any country hosting the terrorists.

And we just might be scared and angry enough to go after those who've funded the terrorists.

 

[Hezam]

This is an example for ignorance.you still ask Why ? =_=