About honorofic form of "くれる"

[laser2302]

I read "くださる" is honorofic form of "くれる" but isn't the honorofic form of "くれる" is "お + [i-stem] & なさいませ"? If not, then what is "お + [i-stem] & なさいませ"? If yes, then why it is said that the honorofic form of "くれる" is "くださる"? Thanks!

 

[Toritoribe]

なさいませ is imperative. An honorific form of verbs is "お + the -masu stem of verbs + なさる / ご + the stem of -suru verbs + なさる", but this form can't be applied to all verbs. Some verbs have special honorific verbs, and くれる is one of them.
e.g.
言う --> おっしゃる
行く/来る/いる --> いらっしゃる
(お言いなさる/お行きなさる sounds rather classical except the imperative form, お来なさる/おいなさる (from いる) is invalid, etc.)

Incidentally, there is another honorific form "お + the -masu stem of verbs + になる / ご + the stem of -suru verbs + になる". This is more common than お/ご～なさる.

 

[laser2302]

But 下さい is also an imperative/request form, it's an imperative/request form of which verb exactly? As far as my understanding is concerned it's request form of くださる (which is honorofic form) so 下さい should be honorofic too if I'm not mistaken. But I read the honorofic request form is なさいませ and 下さい is just a polite form.

 

[Toritoribe]

なさいませ and ください has nothing to do with each other. They are different expressions. ください is indeed an imperative form of くださる, which is an honorific verb of くれる, but ください is just a polite request, and can't be said an honorific.
On the other hand, なさいませ is an imperative form of なさいます, which is the polite form of なさる, but なさいませ is rarely used in real conversations except set phrases such like お帰りなさいませ or お休みなさいませ. It sounds like words from a servant/maid/steward/butler to their master.
This nuance of なさいませ is actually from ませ. In fact, just なさい without ませ is an order, and can't be said an honorific as same as ください. Furthermore, くださいませ has a similar nuance to なさいませ.
In conclusion;
助ける
お助けなさる (honorific)
お助けなさいます (honorific; polite form of お助けなさる)
お助けになる (honorific; more common than お助けなさる)

助けてくれる
助けてくださる (honorific)
お助けくださる (honorific; more polite than 助けてくださる)
助けてくださいます/お助けくださいます (honorific; polite form of くださる)

助けてくれ (request)
助けてください (polite request)
お助けください (more polite request than 助けてください)
助けてくださいませ/お助けくださいませ (very polite request, mostly used in business scene or written language)

助けろ (order)
助けなさい/お助けなさい (strong/overbearing order; imperative of 助けなさる/お助けなさる)
お助けなさいませ (sounds like words from a servant/maid/steward/butler to their master, rarely used in real conversations)

助けてください/お助けください is mostly used when the one who wants to be helped is the speaker or the speaker's in-group member(s) since it's from ～てくれる "to do for me". On the other hand, the speaker can't be the object in お助けなさいませ, thus, it can't mean "help me". It's an advice rather than request. This is the main difference in meaning/usage between these two expressions.

 

[Majestic]

Edit: I see Toritoribe-san has beat me to it... Anyway, maybe hearing it twice will help (or..it might further confuse). Anyway, take a look.

I think you are getting tripped up on the idea of honorific.

ください is an imperative form of くださる, which is just the verb give/bestow (call it honorific verb if you like, but don't confuse this verb, which has built-in politeness, with a word that needs to be conjugated in order for it to take a polite or honorific form).
So ください is just the imperative form of an honorific verb, and くださいませ is the polite form of the imperative of an already honorific verb. You could say that くださいませ is therefore doubly-polite, which is why it isn't used in casual conversations, but it is used by people who work in a service industry.


It is the same way with いらっしゃいませ which you often hear in Japan when entering shops or restaurants.
いらっしゃい is the imperative form of an already honorific verb いらっしゃる.
いらっしゃいませ is the polite form of the imperative of an already honorific verb, so you could say it is doubly-polite, which is why it is used by service staff.

IF you want to conjugate an already honorific verb into its penultimate honorific form I suppose you could say お+くださり+になり, but it sounds like something someone would only say when humbling himself or herself at the feet of the emperor. Normally you would never hear this in any conversation.

 

[Mike Cash]

Penultimate?

 

[Majestic]

As I'm often reminded, stick around this site long enough and you will be surprised at the things you don't know. :arghh:

But, but... surely there must be one even higher form of politeness.

 

[Mike Cash]

As I'm often reminded, stick around this site long enough and you will be surprised at the things you don't know. :arghh:

But, but... surely there must be one even higher form of politeness.

The highest form of politeness is 遠慮 and has no verbal form.