A few sentences with で

[raikado]

Thank you! I finally understood this.

Can you also tell me if the next sentence is valid please? 皇居の正門にかかる橋の一つで、二重橋は観光スポットとして有名です。

 

[Toritoribe]

It's invalid, as you supposed.

 

[raikado]

Thank you!

 

[raikado]

Hello,

1) I encountered another sentence with で and I'm not really sure what it is. I feel like this time it is the -te form of the copula, but given the previous cases, I think this might be wrong.
「事態」は変化していく一連の様子を示すもので、特に悪い様子を表すことが多い言葉です。
From 事態 と 状況 と 状態 と 事情 と 概況 はどう違いますか？ | HiNative. (I was searching for the difference between 事態 and 状況)

で could be replaced with の中で here but I don't think it makes sense in this context.
So, as I said, I think it's the -te form of the copula, simply linking the first sentence (変化していく一連の様子を示すもの) to the second one (特に悪い様子を表すことが多い言葉です。)

2) Lastly, do you agree with what is written in that answer? I've been encountering sentences in the dictionary where 事態 is not used only for bad situations. I assume the 変化していく一連の様子を示す part is what sets it apart from 状況?

Spoiler: Examples from the dictionary

[*]（変動：）事態に動きがあって、変化すること。(へんどう【変動】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書)
[*]「後(あと)」は、「事件の三日あと」のように、ある事態が起こった時点を基準とする場合のほか、「あとで電話します」のように、現在を基準にする場合にも用いられる。それに対して、「後(のち)」は、「のちほど」のような表現を除けば、前者の場合にしか用いられない。(のち【後】の類語・シソーラス - 類語辞書 - goo辞書)
[*]（ようやく：）長い間待ち望んでいた事態が遂に実現するさま。(ようやく【漸く】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書)

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Yes, it's the -te form of copula.

2)
大辞林 agrees with it.

大辞林 第三版の解説
じたい【事態】
多く，深刻で好ましくない状態をいう。

事態／事体(ジタイ)とは - コトバンク

事態 and 状況 are quite different. 事態 refers to the state of things, as in the kanji "物事の状態", whereas 状況 is for the situation including the environment.
e.g.
状況が一変し、事態は好転した。

 

[Hoge]

Sorry to complicate the problem, but
北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは知床半島です。2005年自然遺産に登録されました。……
is roughly the same as 北海道の東にある世界遺産であって～
so I think this で is だの連用形, at least can be interpreted so.

 

[Hoge]

You can say 日本の現在の首相で、岸信介氏の孫に当たる人は誰？ even if we have only one current prime minister.

 

[Toritoribe]

Well, we were talking about the difference between it and 六本木にあるビルで, or the possibility that 北海道の東にある世界遺産 is not only one.

 

[Hoge]

I see. Sorry for missing the point. I agree with your former comment:
I don't think it's reasonable to stick to the strict distinction of で. In fact, the two interpretations (the -te form of copula and the particle) are both correct in many cases since the etymologies are the same and their usages are overlapping in some part.

 

[raikado]

Thank you! I can see some difference now between 状況 and 事態.

I just want to make sure that I haven't missed the point too...We established that the で in both your last example and my sentence from the quiz were in fact の中で, and not であって, right?

Hoge didn't consider the first sentence (日本には現在合計〇箇所の世界遺産があります。では北から順にみていきましょう。) and that's why he said で was であって, maybe?

 

[Toritoribe]

both your last example and my sentence from the quiz

What sentences are you referring to?

Hoge didn't consider the first sentence (日本には現在合計〇箇所の世界遺産があります。では北から順にみていきましょう。) and that's why he said で was であって, maybe?

It's not the problem whether the sentence is used in that context or not. The interpretation ～であって can be correct both when 北海道の東にある世界遺産 is singular and plural. The main point is his quote;
I don't think it's reasonable to stick to the strict distinction of で. In fact, the two interpretations (the -te form of copula and the particle) are both correct in many cases since the etymologies are the same and their usages are overlapping in some part.

 

[raikado]

What sentences are you referring to?

1. 日本には現在合計〇箇所の世界遺産があります。では北から順にみていきましょう。
北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは知床半島です。2005年自然遺産に登録されました。……
2. 北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは、どこですか？

What Hoge said about で being であって in the first example doesn't seem strange anymore, but still....I thought that one of the points in that last talk was "Why is で considered の中で and not the -te form of the copula だ (であって) in those cases."

 

[Toritoribe]

What is "those cases" referring to?

 

[raikado]

In those last two sentences, 1. and 2., for example.

 

[Toritoribe]

Where did you get "Why is で considered の中で and not the -te form of the copula だ"?

 

[raikado]

Ok, I will try to explain how I understood this. At first I asked about 3 sentences, 2 of which were:

演歌の歌い方の一つで、一つの音の中で音の高さを上下にゆらす方法を、何と言いますか？
長崎の名物で、ごはんの上にスパゲッティとトンカツをのせ、デミグラスソースをかけた料理を、何と言いますか？

You said that in the first one で is the -te form of だ and in the second one で represents 範囲.
A few posts later you said: "In your examples, when it refers to 範囲, で can be replaced with の中で or のうち, whereas when で is the -te form of copula, it's not."
(Ok, at this point I realize that I said "Why is で considered の中で..." when I should've said "Why is で considered 範囲..")

After that I asked about all those 9 sentences. The first three were:

1) Q: 皇居の正門にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名な橋は、何と言いますか？ Answer:二重橋
Is で the -te form here?

2) Q: 六本木にあるビルで、いろいろな店やレストラン、会社、５４階建てのタワーなどがあります。何と言いますか？
Answer: 六本木ヒルズ
Is 六本木にあるビルで equivalent to 六本木にあるビルの中で? The question and the answer seem weird to me: "Among the buildings in Roppongi, there are various shops, restaurants, companies, 54-story towers, etc. What is it called?". What is called what? I am not able to understand what it is asking of me without looking at the choices/answer first. Is it just me?

3) 北海道の東にある世界遺産で、クマやシカなどがいる自然で有名なのは、どこですか？
It seems there is only one 世界遺産 in 北海道, so is this the -te form?

You asked me if I can see the difference between some sentences similar to those first 3. I assumed my original assumption of "で is the -te form" for sentences 1) and 3) was wrong. Then I asked again if it was the -te form and you asked me if 皇居の正門にかかる橋 could never be plural, so at this point I was sure you were saying that that で was 範囲 and not の中で. [I guess this is where it went wrong?]

And after that followed all the discussion about how で can mean 範囲 when there was only one thing with that property. (Actually, it's true I didn't mention 範囲 even once and instead I asked why is で used as の中で.)

 

[Toritoribe]

Then, how about 二重橋は皇居のお堀にかかる橋です。この橋は観光スポットとして有名です。? 二重橋は皇居のお堀にかかる橋で、観光スポットとして有名です。 can't be considered just the combined version of these two sentences?
I don't think it's reasonable to stick to the strict distinction of で. In fact, the two interpretations (the -te form of copula and the particle) are both correct in many cases since the etymologies are the same and their usages are overlapping in some part.

北海道の東にある世界遺産で and 六本木にあるビルで can be recognized as the same nuance to the answerers. That's why I pointed out the problem to use quiz as an example.

It's not the problem whether the sentence is used in that context or not. The interpretation ～であって can be correct both when 北海道の東にある世界遺産 is singular and plural.

A Japanese proverb has come to my mind now; 木を見て森を見ず. It seems to me that the point you are digging into is not the point you should do.

 

[raikado]

It just seems to me that the meaning of the sentence changes more than it should based on whether で is 範囲 or であって. This is mostly because of how the structure of the sentence changes. I'll explain, maybe this is what I am getting wrong.

Take this sentence for instance: 東京で有名な料理で、小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼くものを、何と言いますか？.

If I consider で as であって: 東京で有名な料理で、小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼くものを、何と言いますか？. Everything before もの modifies もの.
If I consider で as 範囲: 東京で有名な料理で、小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼くものを、何と言いますか？. Only 小麦粉をまぜた水と野菜を鉄板の上で焼く modifies もの.

Is this wrong? If both cases were the same I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this as I have now.

 

[Toritoribe]

北海道の東にある世界遺産で and 六本木にあるビルで can be recognized as the same nuance to the answerers. That's why I pointed out the problem to use quiz as an example.

堂々巡り has come to my mind this time... I don't find any difference in meaning between your two interpretations, at least as a quiz.
A well-known dish in Tokyo, it's cooked on a hot plate.... What is it?

 

[raikado]

Ok. I just wanted to make sure, since it would've still been on my mind otherwise.

Thanks for answering!