私が勉強している大学で

J44xm · 2 Oct 2006

Hello, folks. Here's a quick, simple question about something that I've always had a bit of trouble about. Basically, I want to mention that I couldn't study Japanese at the university that I was formerly studying at. Here's what I have:

でも私が勉強している大学で日本語の勉強は無理でした。

The point here is the "私が勉強している大学で" part. Is this appropriate for saying that this is the university at which I was studying, as opposed to the university that I was studying? I feel like I'm missing something but I'm not sure what. How should I phrase this?

Many thanks!

Mikawa Ossan · 2 Oct 2006

Seems fine to me. You might want to make the 勉強している into progressive past tense (勉強していた）, but otherwise it seems fine to me 100%!

J44xm · 2 Oct 2006

Well, perhaps I was just paranoid. I just feel the lack of the 「で」, I think. This has always thrown me for a bit of a loop.

As for the progressive past tense, that's something else that I was unsure about. Thanks for the clarification. My justification for keeping it in the present was that at that time, I was still studying, and I thought that that, combined with the final past tense verb, gave it this "the university that, at that past time, I was in the midst of studying at" feel. Guess not!

Elizabeth · 2 Oct 2006

J44xm said:
Well, perhaps I was just paranoid. I just feel the lack of the ﾂ「で」, I think. This has always thrown me for a bit of a loop.

As for the progressive past tense, that's something else that I was unsure about. Thanks for the clarification. My justification for keeping it in the present was that at that time, I was still studying, and I thought that that, combined with the final past tense verb, gave it this "the university that, at that past time, I was in the midst of studying at" feel. Guess not!

If you want to contrast it with the university or school you're attending now, I think "daigaku de wa" is good. If what benkyou shite ita is modifying is _what_ you are studying it would normally take a subject/object marker such as "wa" or "wo." It's hard to say without a concrete example, though.

epigene · 2 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
If you want to contrast it with the university or school you're attending now, I think "daigaku de wa" is good. If what benkyou shite ita is modifying is _what_ you are studying it would normally take a subject/object marker such as "wa" or "wo." It's hard to say without a concrete example, though.

I agree with Elizabeth's suggestion to add "wa" after "daigaku de." It sounds more natural because you are making a comparison (even if it means "some other" school or schools in general).
Also, the sentence is OK if you match the tenses.
私が勉強している大学では、日本語の勉強は無理です。
私が勉強していた大学では、日本語の勉強は無理でした。

Elizabeth · 3 Oct 2006

J44xmさん、まだ日本なんでしょうか
それとももう日本から帰ってきたんですか？

まずは、長い間ブログを読まなかったことで謝るべきでしょうね。 :sorry:

Damicci · 3 Oct 2006

So why are we using ga for the topic/subject marker here?

Some how I know I should know this but.....無理ですよ。

Elizabeth · 3 Oct 2006

Damicci said:
So why are we using ga for the topic/subject marker here?
Some how I know I should know this but.....無理ですよ。

I think with too many は'ｓ it is difficult to decipher the true one, the real subject. I still have to think too much about it too, though...

Damicci · 3 Oct 2006

Doesn't 無理 "adjectify" or modify 日本語の勉強？
For some reason I want read it as 日本語の勉強が無理です。

Elizabeth · 3 Oct 2006

Damicci said:
Doesn't 無理 "adjectify" or modify 日本語の勉強？
For some reason I want read it as 日本語の勉強が無理です。

I can't explain the reason very clearly but muri normally takes ha.

Ga is to me more what what you would say to emphasize what is being studied (Japanese) _but_ they didn't have it.

epigene · 3 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
I can't explain the reason very clearly but muri normally takes ha.
Ga is to me more what what you would say to emphasize what is being studied (Japanese) _but_ they didn't have it. :?

Yes, I think so, too. The use of "ha" is normal usage.

There is usage of "--ga muri," but I think it is used in a way to implicitly suggest that "AA is impossible (but BB maybe not)." However, I have seen "ga" being used without any suggestion of comparison--maybe erroneous, since it doesn't sound all right to me. :?

undrentide · 3 Oct 2006

I think Elizabeth san explained it well so just give some additional explanation...

私が勉強している大学では、日本語の勉強は無理です。

Damicci said:
So why are we using ga for the topic/subject marker here?
Some how I know I should know this but.....無理ですよ。

Damicci said:
Doesn't 無理 "adjectify" or modify 日本語の勉強？
For some reason I want read it as 日本語の勉強が無理です。

が is a subject marker (subject of the verb) and also emphrises its preceeding word.
は is a topic marker, and it also implies there're alternatives and the speaker is picking up its preceeding word among the others (for contrast, for example).

［私が勉強している］大学では: The speaker is talking about a specific university (i.e. the one where he's studying). The situation might be different in other universities, but at this particular university...

が is used here to specify the university. University is a place people are studying, and it is the one where I'm studying, (I'm not talking about universities where someone else is studying).

日本語の勉強は無理です。

This is a general statement, so a topic marker は is used to show what the speaker is talking about.
は also implies that you can study other subjects, but not Japanese.

If the speaker is asked なにが無理ですか？ then he might answer

日本語の勉強が無理です。

because he needs to emphasize what is impossible.

I hope this helps a bit...

Damicci · 3 Oct 2006

undrentide said:
I think Elizabeth san explained it well so just give some additional explanation...
私が勉強している大学では、日本語の勉強は無理です。
が is a subject marker (subject of the verb) and also emphasizes its preceding word.
は is a topic marker, and it also implies there are alternatives and the speaker is picking up its preceding word among the others (for contrast, for example).
［私が勉強している］大学では: The speaker is talking about a specific university (i.e. the one where he's studying). The situation might be different in other universities, but at this particular university...
が is used here to specify the university. University is a place people are studying, and it is the one where I'm studying, (I'm not talking about universities where someone else is studying).
日本語の勉強は無理です。
This is a general statement, so a topic marker は is used to show what the speaker is talking about.
は also implies that you can study other subjects, but not Japanese.
If the speaker is asked なにが無理ですか？ then he might answer
日本語の勉強が無理です。
because he needs to emphasize what is impossible.
I hope this helps a bit...

頑張ります

J44xm · 3 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
J44xmさん、まだ日本なんでしょうか
それとももう日本から帰ってきたんですか？
まずは、長い間ブログを読まなかったことで謝るべきでしょうね。

こんにちは、Elizabethさん！元気ですか。

はい、まだ日本で勉強していますよ！それに、今日は6ヶ月きっかり日本にいる日です！もう半年ですね…。かなり信じられません。

ブログは、大丈夫ですよ。読まなくてもいいんです。でも、たまに時間があれば…。ハハ！

それに、面白そうな「べき」という言葉をふと教えてくれました。
皆さん、これからも、よろしくお願いします！

修正:

Elizabeth said:
If what benkyou shite ita is modifying is _what_ you are studying it would normally take a subject/object marker such as "wa" or "wo."

I kind of see. Could I ask for a quick 例文? 「私が勉強していた大学で」 just really makes me feel like I'm saying "At the university that I studied."

Mike Cash · 3 Oct 2006

The meaning becomes a little less clear when directly translated to Japanese. I'm assuming that you mean to say Japanese wasn't offered at the university, which was the reason you couldn't study it.

A more natural translation of "the university I studied at" would become "the university I attended" in Japanese: 私が通った大学.

J44xm · 3 Oct 2006

Hi, Mike Cash!

Well, in truth, there are a couple of low-level classes offered, so the feeling that I was going for was that it's basically impossible to really study Japanese there (as opposed to just taking a couple of classes).

In my sentence above, would 「私が通っていた大学」 not be preferable, since I was studying at that school at the time?

Thanks!

Mike Cash · 3 Oct 2006

J44xm said:
Hi, Mike Cash!

Well, in truth, there are a couple of low-level classes offered, so the feeling that I was going for was that it's basically impossible to really study Japanese there (as opposed to just taking a couple of classes).

In my sentence above, would 「私が通っていた大学」 not be preferable, since I was studying at that school at the time?

I think it would be a more natural formation, although your original expression is far from being impenetrably undecipherable.

私が通った大学では、日本語の授業は初級ばかりしかなかったから、それ以上勉強しつづける場合は独学する他はなかった。 might be one way of expressing the idea.

J44xm · 4 Oct 2006

Many thanks for the fine help! (That's a right fine sentence you made there, Mike Cash. Thanks!)

Mike Cash · 4 Oct 2006

After I went to work today, I gave it a little more thought and realized it could be interpreted quite differently merely by making the final verb ない instead of なかった. I'd like to see if you spot the difference too. Care to have a go at it?

J44xm · 4 Oct 2006

Well, I've never seen 「他」 used like that before. ... For a while, I thought I might have had something but I think that I was misreading the sentence. But since I have nothing else (d'oh!), I'll just guess:

Outside of the obvious tense difference, the なかった version still refers to the speaker's experience (when that person was at that school, if you wanted higher education, you had to self-study); whereas in the ない version, the final portion of the sentence is like a general declaration or even a mild offer of advice.

This feels pretty off, though. What am I missing?

Mike Cash · 4 Oct 2006

Not missing a thing that I know of. Those were precisely my thoughts on it as well.

That 他 after the verb thingy (sometimes in hiragana when used that way) is pretty handy.

Elizabeth · 5 Oct 2006

J44xm said:
Well, I've never seen 「他」 used like that before. ... For a while, I thought I might have had something but I think that I was misreading the sentence. But since I have nothing else (d'oh!), I'll just guess:

I don't think 他 is entirely natural there either. I would have made closer to one of the following :
私が通った大学では、日本語の授業は初級ばかりしかなかったから、それ以上勉強しつづける場合は独学（する）しかなかった。

....する(ことの)ほかに方法はなかった。(Actually a few different ways to take
advantage of 方法)

OR for a slight twist on an old formula found a way to work in 以外
（独学（独習）する以外に道はなかった。。。。以外仕方ない。。。。
There is nothing I could have done but self-study。。。みたいな感じですね。

Mike Cash · 5 Oct 2006

Elizabeth said:
I don't think 他 is entirely natural there either.

I'll admit it is probably more commonly found in writing than in speech.

I would have made closer to one of the following :
私が通った大学では、日本語の授業は初級ばかりしかなかったから、それ以上勉強しつづける場合は独学（する）しかなかった。

Perfectly fine substitution.

....する(こと)のほかに方法はなかった。(Actually a few different ways to take
advantage of 方法)

Neither the こと nor the の are needed.

OR for a slight twist on an old formula found a way to work in 以外
（独学（独習）する以外に道はなかった。。。。以外仕方ない。。。。
There is nothing I could have done but self-study。。。みたいな感じですね。

You do realize the 以外 and 他 are, functionally at least, synonyms here?

Elizabeth · 8 Oct 2006

Mike Cash said:
I'll admit it is probably more commonly found in writing than in speech.

Neither the こと nor the の are needed.[/QUOTE]
私が、括弧に入れた部分は「の」も含まなかったと気がついたが、遅すぎました。ごめん。

「するよりほかに方法はなかった。」の表現も「それ以上勉強することができなかった。」という意味ではないでしょうか？

多分どれも正しいですが、私なら「独学で勉強するしかなかった」「自分で勉強するしかなかった」というと思います。

私が勉強している大学で

経験値が足りない

いかんわ！

経験値が足りない

先輩

相変わらず不束者です

先輩

先輩

先輩

先輩

先輩

相変わらず不束者です

Japa'n vagyok

先輩

経験値が足りない

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

経験値が足りない

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

経験値が足りない

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

経験値が足りない

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

先輩

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

先輩

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