碁笥 = ごす? ごけ?

[Buntaro]

Hi everybody!

We are having a fascinating discussion about Kun-yomi and On-yomi over at the Go Forum.

http://www.godiscussions.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=3121

We are discussing the Kun-yomi and On-yomi for 碁笥 (the bowls you put your Go stones in). Apparently, the two kanji change yomi when they are used in a compound. Can someone give me an example using both readings?

Also, there is a discussion about irregular compounds. Is 碁笥 an irregular compound?

 

[JimmySeal]

According to JDICT and dictionary.goo.ne.jp, the compound is pronounced ごけ, and ご and け are both standard readings for the characters, respectively, so this is not an irregular compound.

ごす might be an erroneous reading that emerged from assuming the compound used on-yomi for both characters and perhaps confusion with words like 箪笥 (たんす).

 

[Buntaro]

Thanks, Jimmy.

Is ごけ the form commonly used in pronunciation and in written style? Or is there a different word that is usually used to refer to the bowls in everyday conversation?

 

[Nagato]

Im also confused with this word. First, it's very rare ON and KUN mixed in one word. For example , this is useful when you dont know whether to put go or o as a prefix to compound honorific word.

But for 碁(go) Im not sure whether it's ON or KUN. Go is the common reading, as you can find in 碁石、囲碁, etc. 碁 itself is also used to refer that game. From 碁石, I can assume that go is KUN, but from 囲碁, now I find ON and KUN mixed in one word, otherwise go is both ON and KUN.

Anyways wiki use goke for 碁笥 reading. 碁石 - Wikipedia

I hope someone would like to explain this irregularity (or perhaps it's not irregularity, just that we don't know about it).

@ Buntaro
I think you can use 椀（わん） or お椀

 

[JimmySeal]

I don't really know anything about go terminology, but it appears that that is the typical word for them. Someone who didn't know much about the game might just use one of Japanese's many words for "bowl" to refer to them.

窶堋ｲ is the on-yomi for ﾅ津ｩ. No two ways about it. Mixing ON and KUN readings in a compound isn't incredibly common, but certainly not rare, especially with words like ﾅ津ｩ and 窶卮? that often stand on their own.

 

[undrentide]

Using both ON and KUN within one kanji compound are not so uncommon - they are called either 重箱読み（じゅうばこよみ＝音＋訓） or 湯桶読み（ゆとうよみ＝訓＋音）.

重箱（じゅうばこ）読み （音＋訓）
重箱読み - Wikipedia
例：
勘所（かんどころ） 牛革（ぎゅうかわ） 客間（きゃくま） 激辛（げきから）
業腹（ごうはら） 極細（ごくぼそ） 残高（ざんだか） 生姜湯（しょうがゆ）
職場（しょくば） 食紅（しょくべに） 書棚（しょだな） 総身（そうみ）
粗品（そしな） 地鶏（じどり） 中火（ちゅうび） 吐息（といき）
馬刺（ばさし） 半生（はんなま） 別物（べつもの） 無様（ぶざま）
不仲（ふなか） 毎月（まいつき） 毎年（まいとし） 毎夜（まいよ）
無印（むじるし） 役場（やくば）

湯桶（ゆとう）読み （訓＋音）
湯桶読み - Wikipedia
例：
合図（あいず）・雨具（あまぐ）・甘党（あまとう）・掛算（かけざん）・消印（けしいん）
敷布（しきふ）・関所（せきしょ）・出番（でばん）・荷物（にもつ）・道順（みちじゅん）

*The above examples are taken from:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/ue_room/information_si.html

 

[Buntaro]

Undrentide-san!

Is this the word usually used in everyday conversation for Go bowls? (I remember asking someone once, and only getting a blank stare.)

Can you give me an example of both readings for this Kanji? (Supposedly, if it is free-standing, or if it is in a combination, it is pronounced differently.)

Nagato-san!

So 湾（わん） is most common, as in "ishi o wan ni ireru"? How do you pronounce お椀?

 

[Nagato]

Undrentide-san, Arigatou.
Undrentide-san には珍しくなくても私には珍しい。気づかないだけかも知れないですね。
edit: やっぱり、多いですね。気づかなかった。

@ Buntaro-san
お椀=owan
Im also not familiar with the game. I meant wan or owan are common words in daily conversation used to refer bowls, not bowl for igo. So maybe "goishi wo goke ni ireru" is better.

 

[undrentide]

Undrentide-san!

Is this the word usually used in everyday conversation for Go bowls? (I remember asking someone once, and only getting a blank stare.)

Can you give me an example of both readings for this Kanji? (Supposedly, if it is free-standing, or if it is in a combination, it is pronounced differently.)

Nagato-san!

So 湾（わん） is most common, as in "ishi o wan ni ireru"? How do you pronounce お椀?

Buntaro san,

Sorry I'm not familiar with 碁 so I'm not sure how common the word 碁笥 is.
The word 碁笥 itself is not commonly used - to be honest, I've never seen/heard of this word before myself - so only people who know 碁 well (maybe those who play 囲碁) would know the word, otherwise you'll get a blank stare if you ask people what is 碁笥.

椀（わん） means bowl, but normally it is the bowl you put food in and eat from.
I don't know if there's any other words for 碁笥, people who don't know the word 碁笥 (like me) would simply describe it something like 碁石を入れるもの、碁石を入れる容器.

I believe 湾 is just a typo, it is also pronounced わん but means bay.

 

[Buntaro]

Undrentide-san!

Thanks for the help. It seems 碁笥 is semmon no kotoba. I guess the best way to refer to Go bowls in everyday conversation is 碁石を入れるもの, just like you said. I guess 石入れ sounds goofy, right?