以上する

healer · 1 May 2020

最近のデザイナーTシャツは１００ドル以上する。

The translation of 以上する is "cost over"
I looked up the dictionary and found that 以上 is a noun.
Is it a way to convert a noun to verb by adding する behind or is it some sort of grammar structure that I haven't learnt?
I googled 以上する and I didn't find any example. It looks like such usage isn't common.

bentenmusume · 1 May 2020

That's because it's not 以上 and する that forms a set phrase, but rather that する is just a standard phrase that can be used with any currency amount to express how much sometimes costs. 一万円もする, etc.

That said, your question regarding using する with nouns to form verbs strikes me as curious, since it's an incredibly common occurrence. 勉強する, 料理する, 修理する, etc.

Again, though, this isn't like those cases. The 以上 is incidental here.

bentenmusume · 1 May 2020

「する」の英語・英語例文・英語表現 - Weblio和英辞書

｢する｣は英語でどう表現する？【単語】print...【例文】I want to have some visiting cards printed...【その他の表現】put into print... - 1000万語以上収録！英訳・英文・英単語の使い分けならWeblio英和・和英辞書

ejje.weblio.jp

To supplement the above, see definition #9 here.

healer · 1 May 2020

Thanks again for your help!

bentenmusume said:
using する with nouns to form verbs strikes me as curious

I did know about them but I treat them as a different kettle of fish.
It was just that I learnt and remember them as some set verbs I can find in dictionaries individually happen to be a noun + するcreated by some authority. Unlike adjective --> adverb + する where anyone can coin up and use so long as the rule is followed. I don't think I can willy-nilly do with nouns though.

Quite a few times I've come across する-suffixed verbs not specifically set out in dictionaries. It seems to me any adjectives be i-adjectives or na-adjectives having been adverbialized can go with する but it is not the case with nouns. Am I correct? I can't go by dictionaries either because it is quite often nouns that do go with する are not all listed as such.

Toritoribe · 1 May 2020

Can you give us the examples of "noun + する" you've come across?

healer · 1 May 2020

Toritoribe said:
Can you give us the examples of "noun + する" you've come across?

As regards those verbs of noun+する which is not described explicitly as such in the dictionary I use, I just came across by chance in the example sentences in the course of learning the Japanese language. I can't recall off the top of my head. I will try given some time.

If I was wrong, please point out. I guess that not all nouns can be converted to be verbs simply adding する. There might be some rules that I haven't learnt.

I thank you for your kind attention.

healer · 1 May 2020

I've just stumbled upon the following example in the dictionary I use while looking up 完了. Unlike 破損, 完了 isn't listed explicitly as a する verb. However it is used as such in the sentence below. This is the situation I tried to describe in my second post above.
屋根が破損した家は今では修理が完了している。

bentenmusume · 1 May 2020

完了する is very common and seems to be listed as a する verb in many references and dictionaries. Maybe it's just a coincidence you haven't been exposed to it?

「する」の英語・英語例文・英語表現 - Weblio和英辞書

｢する｣は英語でどう表現する？【単語】print...【例文】I want to have some visiting cards printed...【その他の表現】put into print... - 1000万語以上収録！英訳・英文・英単語の使い分けならWeblio英和・和英辞書

ejje.weblio.jp

Toritoribe · 2 May 2020

Here are examples.

完了（かんりょう）の意味
かん‐りょう〔クワンレウ〕【完了】の解説
［名］(スル)

完了（かんりょう）とは？意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

完了（かんりょう）とは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。［名］(スル)１物事が完全に終わること。また、完全に終えること。「開店の準備が—する」「予定の仕事を—する」２文法で、動作・状態がすでに終了していること、また、その結果が現在まで実現している状態にあることなどを表す言い方。動詞に、文語では助動詞「つ」「ぬ」「たり」「り」、口語では助動詞「た」などを付けて表す。ヨーロッパ諸語では、基準となる時の違いに応じて、現在完了・過去完了・未来完了などの区別... - goo国語辞書は31万4千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

かんりょうくわんれう［0］【完了】
（名）スル

「完了」の意味や使い方わかりやすく解説 Weblio辞書

「完了」の意味は<p style="padding-bottom: 10px;">読み方：かんりょう 物事が完全に終わること。Weblio国語辞典では「完了」の意味や使い方、用例、類似表現などを解説しています。

www.weblio.jp

完了
Noun, Suru verb, No-adjective

完了 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

healer · 3 May 2020

I apologise that I had picked the wrong 完了. I got the one read as ワンラwhich is not marked as a するverb. The other one かんりょうis actually marked as such. I had the wrong example to demonstrate what I meant. I'll keep looking. By the way,is ワンラever used in everyday Japanese?

Nevertheless the ultimate question I would like to ask is whether I can simply convert any noun to a するverb? Any rules? Must they be noun of action like 勉強and so on? What about noun like 政治for example? Can I make 政治するfor politicking? This one is not specified as する-verb in the dictionary.

By the way,are する-verbs always intransitive? If not,how to determine their transitivity? For some reason,the dictionary I use never indicates the transitivity of する-verbs.

Thanks again Toritoribe-san and Bentenmusume-san.

bentenmusume · 3 May 2020

No, you cannot turn any noun into a verb with する. Examples like the following are all nonsensical, as you can probably imagine.

☓知識する ("to knowledge")
☓危険する ("to danger")
☓健康する ("to health")

And no, not all する verbs are intransitive. Basic examples like 日本語を勉強する should demonstrate otherwise. On the other hand, something like 安心する is clearly intransitive. Some verbs can even be both depending on the usage, like 完成する/完成させる. Just like all verbs, you really just have to familiarize yourself with the range of meanings and the different contexts in which they are used.

Unfortunately, there's no black-or-white, all-or-nothing, 100% or 0% rule to apply here.

Toritoribe · 4 May 2020

In your initial example 100ドル以上する, する is not a usual する "to do" which is used in -suru verbs. This する means "to cost / be worth" i.e., かかる, as bentenmusume-san already explained. Also, （100ドル）以上 is not a noun but an adverbial phrase to express degree or quantity here, as same as もっとする/かかる or もう少しする/かかる.

You said you've often come across "noun + する", but, to tell the truth, I suspect that the expressions you've come across could be actually usual -suru verbs like 完了する or not "noun + する" like 100ドル以上する. That's why I asked you to give us examples.

healer said:
By the way,is ワンラever used in everyday Japanese?

That's Chinese pronunciation.

healer · 4 May 2020

Thanks Bentenmusume-san!

bentenmusume said:
安心する

You have given me an example I've been searching for in the last few days. I looked up 安心 and I found this is one of those I referred to before where dictionaries don't classify it to be a する-verb, the jisho.org and imiwa. Because of absence of set rules I have been trying to check every one of them with a dictionary to determine if any noun can be treated as a する-verb. Unfortunately dictionaries are not complete in this sense. So it looks like I somehow have to pick them up one by one and accept what I see not relying on dictionaries to verify.

healer · 4 May 2020

Thanks Toritoribe-san.

Toritoribe said:
する is not a usual する "to do" which is used in -suru verbs.

I do realise the する in the initial example is not part of usual する-verb, neither does it mean "to do" thanks to Bentenmusume-san's explanation. I took the chance to discuss general する-verbs. I can't thank you both enough.

Are you saying I'm wrong to say all the する-verbs consist of noun and する? I had supposed for example 完了する where 完了 is a noun.

Toritoribe · 4 May 2020

healer said:
I looked up 安心 and I found this is one of those I referred to before where dictionaries don't classify it to be a する-verb, the jisho.org and imiwa.

????

あんしん【安心】の解説
［名・形動］(スル)

安心（あんしん）とは？意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

安心（あんしん）とは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。［名・形動］(スル)１気にかかることがなく心が落ち着いていること。また、そのさま。「列車で行くほうが—だ」「—して任せられる」２ ⇒あんじん（安心） - goo国語辞書は31万4千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

あんしん［0］【安心】
（名・形動）スル［文］ナリ

「安心(アンジン)」の意味や使い方わかりやすく解説 Weblio辞書

「安心」の意味は<p style="padding-bottom: 10px;">読み方：あんしん 気にかかることがなく心が落ち着いていること。Weblio国語辞典では「安心」の意味や使い方、用例、類似表現などを解説しています。

www.weblio.jp

安心
Na-adjective, Noun, Suru verb

安心 - Jisho.org

jisho.org

healer said:
Are you saying I'm wrong to say all the する-verbs consist of noun and する?

Yes. 勉強する is a single word(verb), not "noun 勉強 + verb する". That's why 日本語を勉強する and 日本語の勉強をする are different in the sentence structure. (勉強 is a noun in the latter example, needless to say.)

healer · 5 May 2020

Thanks for the details of 安心. Again I've found two different headwords for the same kanji's with different pronunciations. I had mistaken あんじん for あんしん where the former wasn't registered as する-verb whereas the latter was. Please accept my apology.

Just one more verb on this topic I would like your comment. I have seen タップして詳細を表示 on my mobile phone. I looked up タップ. It was definitely not set out as する-verb. However in the sentence given, it is a する-verb, isn't it?

Toritoribe · 5 May 2020

healer said:
I looked up タップ. It was definitely not set out as する-verb.

Really???

タップ【tap】の解説
［名］(スル)

タップ（tap）とは？意味・読み方・使い方をわかりやすく解説 - goo国語辞書

タップ（tap）とは。意味や使い方、類語をわかりやすく解説。１雌ねじを切る工具。雌ねじ切り。２電気の引き出し線用導線に、接続部品のついたもの。㋐電源と電気器具との中継に用いるコードで、一方にコンセント、他方にプラグがついたもの。「テーブル—」㋑コイルや抵抗器の中間から引き出した導線に端子のついた部分。コイルの巻き数や抵抗値を変えるのに用いる。３水道の蛇口。給水栓。４ボウリングでストライクゾーンに入りながら、ピンが1本だけ残ること。 - goo国語辞書は31万4千件語以上を収録。政治・経済・医学・ITなど、最新用語の追加も定期的に行っています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

タップ
Noun, Suru verb

タップ - Jisho.org

jisho.org

healer · 5 May 2020

Thanks a lot!
I can see both marked as する-verb on goo.ne.jp, not on jisho.org and imiwa though. It looks like I need to start using goo.ne.jp. Thanks again.

Toritoribe · 5 May 2020

healer said:
not on jisho.org

???
Are there two different Jisho.org? Or, it's just your carelessness?

Toritoribe said:
タップ
Noun, Suru verb

タップ - Jisho.org

jisho.org

healer · 6 May 2020

Thanks for your tolerance and perseverance! My oversight on both. I did glance through.

以上する

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