ノックをせずに [Grammar]

T

turvy

先輩

27 Jan 2012

54

1

• 6 Feb 2012

• #1

About this sentence:

ノックをせずに部屋に入って来るな。」
Don't come into my room without knocking.

How come する conjugates to せ? I thought its ない form was し.

 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Twenty-year veteran

15 Mar 2002

16,758

2,298

• 6 Feb 2012

• #2

ず is another way of forming the negative. する changes to せず. The form is most often seen followed by に and consequently is used in an adverbial sort of way as a general thing.

 

Half-n-Half

先輩

17 Jul 2007

920

70

• 6 Feb 2012

• #3

On top of what Mike said, する is irregular for the ず form. Normally, it is just the negative form minus ない plus ず i.e.
聞かず
食べず
etc.

 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Moderator

Fifteen-year veteran

22 Feb 2008

18,266

4,926

• 6 Feb 2012

• #4

ず is a classical auxiliary verb for negation, which is the equivalent to ない in Modern Japanese. And せ is the 未然形(pre -nai form) of a classical verb す, which is the equivalent to する in Modern Japanese. Thus, せず is a remnant of Classical Japanese.

Another ず example I can think of is あらず. ある doesn't have the negative from in Modern Japanese but あらず is still used mostly in set phrases or proverbs as same as せず.

 

T

turvy

先輩

27 Jan 2012

54

1

• 6 Feb 2012

• Thread starter
• #5

To summarize, する is irregular for the ず form so it conjugates to せ in 未然形.

By the way, you are all talking about classical Japanese but I was just learning about ずに・'without', described here and mostly interested in studying practical Japanese at the moment. Is ずに an archaic/outdated grammar?.

 

S

staren

先輩

9 Nov 2011

81

0

• 6 Feb 2012

• #6

It's also brough up on Tae Kims page here: More negative verbs | Tae Kim's Guide to Learning Japanese

He says it's more formal to use -ずに compared to -ないで. And -ずに is therefor not used so much in conversations.

 

T

turvy

先輩

27 Jan 2012

54

1

• 6 Feb 2012

• Thread starter
• #7

I see.

I was so excited when I came across this, 学校行かずにフランス語, and was able to understand what it says. 'French without going to school' or something along those lines.

 

S

staren

先輩

9 Nov 2011

81

0

• 6 Feb 2012

• #8

Yea, and seeing it often cements it in your brain

 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Moderator

Fifteen-year veteran

22 Feb 2008

18,266

4,926

• 6 Feb 2012

• #9

No, it's commonly used mostly in written words. As Mike-san wrote, に is most often put after ず, but not always so. There are several structures that ず is still used in Modern Japanese.
e.g.
そんなことは言わずともよい（＝言わなくてもいい）
期せずして上手くいった（＝思いがけず）

EDIT:
Ooops, you two already posted while I'm writing.

 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Twenty-year veteran

15 Mar 2002

16,758

2,298

• 6 Feb 2012

• #10

It's still encountered frequently enough in daily speech that it is something you need to be familiar with. It quite frequently comes up in my industry, as it did at a monthly meeting this evening after work, in the form of 寝ずに (without sleeping). I hear it as 寝ずに行く or 寝ないで行く on probably a roughly 50/50 split. It is used frequently enough that if you trot it out yourself nobody will bat an eyelash at it or remark on your using "archaic" Japanese.