と / 行ってみないこと / だいたい / 車の展開

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eeky

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8 Jun 2010

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• 7 Jul 2012

• #1

Hi, these are some more sentences from a story about some students planning a trip to China, which I am having some trouble with.


1. 無計画でいく、それが最善の計画であろうと。

I believe this means "The best plan would be to go (to China) without a plan", but what is the purpose of と at the end? The dictionary says と can indicate a question, but I have never seen that usage. Is that what it signifies here?


2. 行ってみないことには何も分からない。

My best guess is "We know nothing about things we have not been to see", but I have no confidence that this is correct.


3. だいたい私達だけで自由な旅ができるものだろうか。ガ イドもつけずに。

My translation: "Would it be possible to travel by ourselves and go where we pleased? Without a guide?"

In what sense is だいたい used?


4. 葉さんは車の展開に驚き、むしろ心配そう。

I gather this means that Yuu-san looked surprised, or rather worried, about the proposed travel arrangements. However, I do not exactly understand 車の展開. Is it an idiom?

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

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• 7 Jul 2012

• #2

1) A question? Not a quotation? To me it looks like they just didn't say 思う at the end.

2) I think that's right.

3) I believe "in the first place" is a suitable translation here. See:

4 〔元来，そもそも〕
それは大体日本人が発明したものである
It was originally invented by a Japanese.
あの男は大体怠け者で困るんだ
The problem is that he is lazy by nature.
大体親が間違っているんだ
It's really the parents who are to blame.
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/je2/45140/m0u/大体

4) I think it means the profusion of cars in China. He's surprised at, or rather worried about the sheer number of cars in China nowadays.

 

E

eeky

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8 Jun 2010

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• #3

Thanks Glenn

1. Under と, WWWJDIC says "indicates question (sentence end)", nothing further, but I have only just noticed that it is marked as Kyushu dialect, so I don't know if that usage is very likely in this story...

4. Oh, right. That seems a bit of a non-sequitur. I'm not sure why she would be worrying about that at this juncture of the story.

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

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1) Ah. Interesting.

4) Hmm... I don't know. Nothing around it gives it any sort of context that's useful?

 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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• #5

1)
Probably most of all J-J dictionaries don't have such usage of と. I don't think it's appropriate that that difinition is listed in a common dictionary.
The sentence final particle と in Fukuoka/Kyushu dialect is similar to の in standard Japanese, as in the thread linked below.

Hakata-ben (Fukuoka dialect)

2)
That's more likely 行ってみないことは何も分からない. 行ってみないことには means "unless we go there".

4)
I'm pretty sure that it must be 葉さんは事の展開に驚き. ;-)

 

E

eeky

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• #6

1. So, is Glenn's suggestion that "they just didn't say 思う at the end" correct? Is it valid to leave off 思う and just have it assumed?

2. Hmm. I did wonder, actually, about the purpose of に when I was originally trying to understand the sentence, but I still have little feel for this は/には distinction. What pattern is に part of? I mean, does it go with 分からない, or is ことに a unit, for example? Could you give any other simple sentences that illustrate this, to help me understand the pattern?

4. Oh, gosh, you are right, it's 事. (Must get those stronger glasses!)

 

Toritoribe

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1)
Yes, it's obvious from the context that 思った, 判断した or like that is omitted, and this kind of omission quite often occurs. (と is for quotation, as Glenn-san pointed out.)

2)
You can think ～ないことには as a set phrase, meaning ～なくては, ないと, なければ. In this structure, the main clause expresses "something is impossible (unless~)".
e.g.
雨が止まないことには出かけようがない。
彼が来ないことには会議も始められない。

 

Glenn

一切皆苦

8 Jan 2004

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• 8 Jul 2012

• #8

Well, this has been an interesting thread. Odd I don't seem to remember ～ないことには...

 

E

eeky

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8 Jun 2010

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• 8 Jul 2012

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• #9

Thanks everyone.

 

Elizabeth

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22 Apr 2003

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• #10

Glenn said:

Well, this has been an interesting thread. Odd I don't seem to remember ～ないことには...

Click to expand...

I though it was also similar to ～ずには for must/have to do something but am not completely sure...

 

Toritoribe

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～ずに is a classical form of ～ないで. A clause like 会議も/が始められない hardly follows ～ずには. This expression is usually used in a structure ～ずにはいられない, ～ずには済まない or like that. (It seems interesting to think how different ～なくて is from ～ないで.)

 

Elizabeth

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I have to give a half baked example and there may be some possibility of a similar situation where zu ni wa is more equivalent to nai koto ni wa than nai de. In the case of for instance: " XXX wo fukaku rikai sezu ni wa XXX tadashiku kangaeru koto ga dekinai deshou" Expressing the necessity for or importance of a deep understanding of s.t. to thinking about it correctly.

 

Toritoribe

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～を深く理解せずに、･･･ことはできない is more natural than 理解せずには for the case. Furthermore, ～を深く理解しないで、･･･ことはできない sounds more natural than ～を深く理解しないことには、･･･ことはできない to me, in the first place.

 

Elizabeth

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• 8 Jul 2012

• #14

Ok, thanks. I recalled the original phrase from a 1960's era textbook so either the grammar is old-fashionedish by modern standards or those were the author's copy mistakes.