~て下さい - a request or a grant of permission?

healer · 10 Jul 2019

~て下さい is usually used as a request to someone for doing a favour.
Sometimes we respond to a request by saying ...~て下さい which means feel free to do it.

I suppose it all depends upon the context again.

Without any context, I would interpret the sentence below as a request. Somehow this sentence in my textbook is translated as "Feel free to watch TV after finishing the homework."
宿題が終わってからテレビを見て下さい

Toritoribe · 10 Jul 2019

Yes, that's a request because of 宿題が終わってから. 退屈だったら(if you are boring)テレビを見て下さい/ご覧ください is an invitation or "feel free to~".

healer · 11 Jul 2019

Toritoribe said:
テレビを見て下さい/ご覧ください is an invitation or "feel free to~".

Sorry I don't quite follow what you said.
Is that a request or a grant of permission?
On one hand you said that is a request, then you said it is an invitation.
You seem to say the first part is definitely a request. How they all fit together then?
Are you saying it all depends on the context because the same sentence could have either intention?

By the way, shouldn't ご覧ください be ご覧になってください if it is an honorific form?

Toritoribe · 11 Jul 2019

healer said:
Is that a request or a grant of permission?

No. The one the speaker is talking to doesn't ask permission previously, and it's not the speaker's request, either. It's like "if you like" or "if you don't mind".

healer said:
On one hand you said that is a request, then you said it is an invitation.
You seem to say the first part is definitely a request. How they all fit together then?

Not the first clause is a request or an invitation, but the whole sentence is a request or an invitation as a set.

healer said:
Are you saying it all depends on the context because the same sentence could have either intention?

Sorry for nitpicking, but I have to say that this terminology is important. Not the same sentence, but the same clause. And yes, the meaning of the clause changes depending on the context, including the preceding clause.

EDIT:

healer said:
By the way, shouldn't ご覧ください be ご覧になってください if it is an honorific form?

No. "お + -masu stem of verb + ください" / "ご + Chinese origin verbal noun + ください" also works well.
e.g.
お教えください
お答えください
ご教示ください
ご返答ください

healer · 13 Jul 2019

Toritoribe said:
No. The one the speaker is talking to doesn't ask permission previously,

So I understand now that the same clause can mean both and all depends on whether a request has been made before then.

Toritoribe said:
Sorry for nitpicking,

I like to be meticulous and that's how I learn the right thing. Thanks for your kind attention and your patience with me.

Toritoribe said:
No. "お + -masu stem of verb + ください" / "ご + Chinese origin verbal noun + ください" also works well.

Thanks! This is something new to me. I have learnt お + stem of verb + になる to drive honorific verbs.
I've thought verbal nouns refer to する verbs only. So do all nouns derived from the stems of the verbs are also called verbal nouns? It's hard to tell if they are of Chinese origin. Could we say those of Chinese origin consists of all kanji? ThenI've found お勉強. I'm not sure if I can say お勉強ください.

By the way I can't work out how ご覧 is derived. Is 覧 a verbal noun? According to a textbook, the honorific form of 見る is 覧になる. I've supposed these special honorific forms are used in preference to standard common forms.

Toritoribe · 13 Jul 2019

healer said:
So I understand now that the same clause can mean both and all depends on whether a request has been made before then.

Exactly.

healer said:
I've thought verbal nouns refer to する verbs only. So do all nouns derived from the stems of the verbs are also called verbal nouns?

Verbal nouns (動詞性名詞/動作性名詞) usually refer to the stem of -suru verbs. The -masu stem of verbs (読み, 負け, 泳ぎ, etc.) belongs to this group in a broader sense, but they are not Chinese origin, anyway.

healer said:
It's hard to tell if they are of Chinese origin. Could we say those of Chinese origin consists of all kanji?

You can think they are mostly on'yomi kanji compound words.

healer said:
ThenI've found お勉強.

お勉強 is an exception. ご is usually used with on'yomi kanji words, but some words are used with お (e.g. お食事, お電話, お世話), and some can be attached to both お and ご (e.g. お/ご返事, お/ご誕生, お/ご病気).

healer said:
I'm not sure if I can say お勉強ください.

お勉強ください might be acceptable, but ご勉強ください sounds more natural to me. I would use another expressions (お学びください, ご学習ください, ご研究ください, etc.) for that meaning, though.

healer said:
By the way I can't work out how ご覧 is derived. Is 覧 a verbal noun? According to a textbook, the honorific form of 見る is 覧になる. I've supposed these special honorific forms are used in preference to standard common forms.

That's from a classical verb ご覧ず (This is an honorific verb, so ご is attached from the first.)

goo

NTTドコモが運営するポータルサイト「goo」。今話題のニュースやドコモのキャンペーン、サービス紹介などお役立ちコンテンツを展開しています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

This verb is not used anymore in modern Japanese, but the noun form ご覧 is still used (e.g. ご覧の通り). ご覧になる is one of the this usage.

ごらん is also used as a soft imperative form of 見る from superior to subordinate (from father to children, for instance). This is a shortened version of ごらんなさい. Hiragana is more common for this usage.
e.g.
あれをごらん（＝ soft version of あれを見なさい)
これを聞いてごらん（＝ soft version of これを聞いてみなさい)

healer · 14 Jul 2019

Toritoribe said:
お勉強 is an exception. ご is usually used with on'yomi kanji words, but some words are used with お (e.g. お食事, お電話, お世話), and some can be attached to both お and ご (e.g. お/ご返事, お/ご誕生, お/ご病気).

I have had a check and found the pronunciation of all the kanji's listed have an 音読み reading, except 生 in 誕生 which I'm not sure if じょう is 音読み or 訓読み. What I'm trying to say is that one can't really be sure of using ご for Chinese-originated words and お for those not. There seems to be many exceptions. Again they need to be remembered together I guess.

Toritoribe said:
That's from a classical verb ご覧ず

I see. ご覧ください is from the stem of the masu form of the obsolete verb ご覧ず
What is soft imperative? An imperative which is quasi-polite?
Are there a lot of soft imperative verbs?

Toritoribe · 15 Jul 2019

healer said:
I have had a check and found the pronunciation of all the kanji's listed have an 音読み reading

Yes, because I only listed on'yomi stem examples.

healer said:
except 生 in 誕生 which I'm not sure if じょう is 音読み or 訓読み.

You can find しょう as an on'yomi, right? じょう is rendaku of it.

Rendaku - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

healer said:
What I'm trying to say is that one can't really be sure of using ご for Chinese-originated words and お for those not.

You can think on-on combination is the most common for the stem of -suru verbs. Exceptions are very few, e.g., 仕事する, 試合する, 仕置きする, 仕訳する. These し are originally from the -masu stem of する, and 仕 or 試 are just ateji, so they are actually not Chinese origin, and have nothing to do with on'yomi.

Ateji - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are many on-kun or kun-on reading combination nouns, though. Incidentally, the former is called 重箱読み(じゅうばこよみ）, and the latter is 湯桶読み（ゆとうよみ）.

healer said:
There seems to be many exceptions.

Exceptions are not so many. You can think almost all on'yomi stems are used with ご.

Incidentally, although 食事 is the stem of -suru verbs, お食事ください means "please give me a meal", not "please eat". Similarly, お電話ください is used only for "please call me", and can't mean "please call someone else", unlike お電話してください. 食事 and 電話 are not interpreted as a verbal noun in these cases, and ください works as a verb "give me ~", not "give a favor of doing for me". You can think お電話ください is a kind of set expression.

healer said:
What is soft imperative?

Not a strong order, but a gentle/tender suggestion, for instance.

healer said:
Are there a lot of soft imperative verbs?

Special ones are not so many. What I can think of now is おいで (including ～ておいで), but "お + -masu stem of verb" has a similar nuance (e.g. お食べ, お行き, お入り). (おいで is also from "お + the -masu stem of a classical verb 出づ".)

healer · 17 Jul 2019

Toritoribe said:
Incidentally, although 食事 is the stem of -suru verbs, お食事ください means "please give me a meal", not "please eat". Similarly, お電話ください is used only for "please call me", and can't mean "please call someone else", unlike お電話してください. 食事 and 電話 are not interpreted as a verbal noun in these cases, and ください works as a verb "give me ~", not "give a favor of doing for me". You can think お電話ください is a kind of set expression.

Are you saying お電話してください can be used to ask a favour of calling someone else but not oneself? So are 食事 and stems of other する verbs?

Toritoribe said:
Special ones are not so many.

Special verbs exclude する verbs, aren't they?

OoTmaster · 17 Jul 2019

Toritoribe said:
Yes, that's a request because of 宿題が終わってから. 退屈だったら(if you are boring)テレビを見て下さい/ご覧ください is an invitation or "feel free to~".

I hate to nitpick here but shouldn't it be "if you are bored"? If you are bored refers to someone having boredom. If you are boring means that listening to or being around that person can cause boredom in others.

I know it might seem a bit off topic but trying to make sure I understand 退屈だったら correctly in that context.

Toritoribe · 18 Jul 2019

healer said:
Are you saying お電話してください can be used to ask a favour of calling someone else but not oneself?

Yes.
e.g.
あとで田中さんにお電話してください。
Please call Mr.Tanaka later.

healer said:
So are 食事 and stems of other する verbs?

"The stem of -suru verbs + して" is "the -te form of the -suru verb", after all. Thus, お電話してください or お食事してください are a polite version of "-te form of verb + ください", e.g. 食べてください, 見てください, 教えてください, etc.

healer said:
Special verbs exclude する verbs, aren't they?

Sorry but I don't get what you mean.

OoTmaster said:
shouldn't it be "if you are bored"?

Ooops! My bad!! Yes, I meant "if you are bored". Thanks for your correction.

joadbres · 18 Jul 2019

Toritoribe said:
ご is usually used with on'yomi kanji words, but some words are used with お (e.g. お食事, お電話, お世話)

For me, it is helpful (and etymologically accurate) to think of 世話 as ateji, as opposed to a word of Chinese origin. Then I have no problem understanding and remembering the use of お with it.

Toritoribe · 18 Jul 2019

Interesting. I didn't know the etymology of 世話. There seems to be two different hypotheses about the etymology, but it's not a Chinese origin kanji compound word, anyway.

世話(セワ)とは？意味や使い方 - コトバンク

デジタル大辞泉 - 世話の用語解説 - ［名］(スル)１面倒をみること。尽力すること。「病人の世話」「大きなお世話」「親身になって世話する」２間に立って斡旋あっせんすること。取り持つこと。「就職先を世話する」３手数がかかってやっかいであること。面倒であること。「世...

kotobank.jp

healer · 18 Jul 2019

OoTmaster said:
shouldn't it be "if you are bored"?

I did see it and I guessed I knew what Toritoribe san meant so I didn't ask further. Language is a living thing even dictionaries are not up to the minute. So it is hard to tell. Someone might take it literally. Anyway it is good to be meticulous in order to be sure.

Toritoribe said:
Sorry but I don't get what you mean.

I just want to be sure that する verbs cannot be soft imperative verbs.

joadbres said:
it is helpful (and etymologically accurate) to think of 世話 as ateji,

It seems that this is a very good way to differentiate when お instead of ご should go with the kanji.
Only problem is it is difficult for beginners of Japanese language to tell if they are ateji. Not even the dictionaries I use tell me that.

Toritoribe · 19 Jul 2019

healer said:
I just want to be sure that する verbs cannot be soft imperative verbs.

I see. "The stem of -suru verb + おし" can work as a soft imperative as same as "お + -masu stem of verb". (し is the -masu stem of する.)
e.g.
勉強おし
相談おし

Actually, these "～おし" are rarely used nowadays, except only few old (especially female) people.

healer · 19 Jul 2019

Thanks! Just be sure that お cannot go before the stem of する verb. So no お勉強し nor お相談し.

Toritoribe · 20 Jul 2019

That's right. お is attached to し, so it's always おし whether the stem of -suru verb is Chinese origin or Japanese origin.

~て下さい - a request or a grant of permission?

healer

Sempai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

healer

Sempai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

healer

Sempai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

goo

healer

Sempai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Rendaku - Wikipedia

Ateji - Wikipedia

healer

Sempai

OoTmaster

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

joadbres

八方凡人

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

世話(セワ)とは？意味や使い方 - コトバンク

healer

Sempai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

healer

Sempai

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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