しただけのかいがない

raikado · 29 Sep 2017

Hello,

I have some questions about the use of past tense (しただけの) in the following cases. These are the definitions for 無駄 from two different dictionaries:
１役に立たないこと。それをしただけのかいがないこと。また、そのさま。無益。(LINK)
①しただけの効果や効用のないこと。役に立たないこと。また、そのさま。無益。(LINK)

Do these した indicate the completion of the action? And NOT that the action happened in the past.
Similar to how あと is always preceded by past tense or how ～た時 means "after the action has finished". I'm thinking した has that meaning here because かい and 効果 show the outcome of the action and thus require the completion of the action.

Toritoribe · 30 Sep 2017

There is no problem to use that expression for a past unfinished/incomplete action, and the present form also can be used with （だけの）甲斐 or 効果.

raikado · 30 Sep 2017

Toritoribe said:
There is no problem to use that expression for a past unfinished/incomplete action

Can you give an example sentence, please? It would be easier to see what you are referring to.

Toritoribe said:
the present form also can be used with （だけの）甲斐 or 効果.

Thanks. I was planning to ask something like this.
So for the definition of 無駄... "それをしただけのかいがないこと。" could be replaced with the following two?
それをするだけのかいがないこと。
それをするかいがないこと。

Would それをしたかいがないこと。 also work? This one seems different, like it can only be used for something that already happened.

Toritoribe · 1 Oct 2017

raikado said:
Can you give an example sentence, please? It would be easier to see what you are referring to.

去年糖質ダイエットをしばらく試したが、食事制限した（だけの）甲斐/効果がなかったので途中でやめた。

raikado said:
Thanks. I was planning to ask something like this.
So for the definition of 無駄... "それをしただけのかいがないこと。" could be replaced with the following two?
それをするだけのかいがないこと。
それをするかいがないこと。

Would それをしたかいがないこと。 also work? This one seems different, like it can only be used for something that already happened.

All work fine as a definition of 無駄 since 無駄 can be used both for 役に立たないこと and 役に立たなかったこと.

raikado · 1 Oct 2017

Toritoribe said:
去年糖質ダイエットをしばらく試したが、食事制限した（だけの）甲斐/効果がなかったので途中でやめた。

I see. It makes sense. Thank you!

Toritoribe said:
All work fine as a definition of 無駄 since 無駄 can be used both for 役に立たないこと and 役に立たなかったこと.

Sorry, what I was trying to say is:

それをしただけのかいがないこと。
それをするだけのかいがないこと。
それをするかいがないこと。
The above can all mean 役に立たないこと, but それをしたかいがないこと cannot (it can only be 役に立たなかったこと). Is this correct?

Toritoribe · 2 Oct 2017

する/した甲斐がない（こと） can be a general statement/explanation of the characteristic/property of the action, so all those four expressions can be used both for 役に立たない/立たなかった（こと）. You need to think about real descriptions if your aim is to know the difference between the present and past form in those expressions.

raikado · 3 Oct 2017

Hmm, for example, it's the day before the final exam and I don't know anything, so I say to myself:
今すぐ勉強しなければならないなあ…いいえ、いまさら勉強する/した甲斐がない。
(I should start studying immediately...No, there is no point studying so late.)
Both する and した are valid here?

I am thinking that 勉強した甲斐がない shows that completing the action is pointless. Something like "Even if I will have studied, it's pointless" OR "Even after I will have finished studying, it's pointless".
And 勉強する甲斐がない doesn't explicitly have this "completion" meaning to it.

Toritoribe · 4 Oct 2017

する doesn't work in that case since the subject haven't studied at that time, and 今更 refers to future as same as これから there.

raikado · 4 Oct 2017

Are you talking about just the いまさら勉強する/した part? (Without 甲斐がない)
It sounds like you are describing した though. Can you confirm that you really meant to write する and not した?

Because いまさら勉強する seems fine, but reading it again, いまさら勉強した doesn't make sense to me.

Toritoribe · 4 Oct 2017

Ooops! Sorry, I meant "した(＝いまさら勉強した甲斐がない) doesn't work in that case".

raikado · 5 Oct 2017

Then, how about でも数学がとても難しくて、一日だけ勉強する/した甲斐がない。? Are both variants possible?

Toritoribe · 6 Oct 2017

That sounds awkward even with する. It should be 一日だけなら/だと、勉強する甲斐/効果はない or 一日だけ勉強しても甲斐がない/効果がない/無駄だ. した doesn't work well, anyway.

raikado · 18 Oct 2017

Sorry for this awfully late reply. It's just that this past week has been busy.

I think I should have started this thread with these questions: "What does それをしただけのかいがないこと。mean in those dictionary definitions? Why the past tense?".

I'm going to explain in more detail what I wanted to ask initially, since I think it might have been way to vague. Starting from this paragraph I found{SOURCE}:

It's worth ~ing「〜する甲斐がある」

何か良いもの、価値があるものには何かの代償があります。そこでよく使うフレーズがIt's worth it です。「〜する甲斐がある」という意味です。It's worthの後に来る言葉がその価値の代償を表現します。例えば、It's worth waiting. 「待つ甲斐がある」。

The restaurant is really far but it's worth going there. レストランは遠いのですが、行く甲斐があります。

So "～する（だけの）甲斐がある/ない" means "it's worth/not worth doing...". What I've been trying to ask is: "Does [～した（だけの）甲斐がある/ない] mean [it's worth/not worth completing...]?"
And more importantly, can it refer to something being completed in the future or in general?

For example, in the following two sentences, the past form is used, but they refer to something being completed in the future or in general.
説明を聞いた後で、作業を始めましょう。
この黄色い薬は熱が出た時に飲んでください。

If した（だけの）甲斐がある does have this meaning, then it should be valid in sentences like "doing (completing) something is worth it, so [let's do that]/[I will do that]".
But now, I don't think it can be used like this. I would give a japanese example for the mentioned situation but everything that comes to mind seems plain wrong. I also can't find sentences on google that appear to have this meaning.

Toritoribe · 18 Oct 2017

You seem to overlook the very critical difference between する/した（だけの）甲斐がある and your two examples of 後で/時に. In the construction 後で/時に, two actions are described and there is a temporal order between them, i.e., the action 作業を始める/飲む is always done after 説明を聞く/熱が出る. That's why the past form is required. On the other hand, there is no such temporal order in レストランは遠いのですが、行く甲斐があります. As I pointed out previously, this expression can be "a general statement/explanation of the characteristic/property of the action", so 行った甲斐 can work even when you haven't go the restaurant yet (e.g. おいしいそうだから、行った甲斐があるでしょうね). You can think this is a kind of conditional (行けば行った甲斐がある). Of course there are cases where ～した甲斐 is necessary, though.
する/した甲斐がある and する/しただけの甲斐がある are not the same, by the way.

raikado · 21 Oct 2017

Thank you very much!
I didn't know if "a general statement/explanation of the characteristic/property of the action" meant it would work with that exact usage I had in mind. And I also wanted to see an example.

Toritoribe said:
する/した甲斐がある and する/しただけの甲斐がある are not the same, by the way.

Yes, I was putting だけの in parantheses so I wouldn't write the whole thing again.
The way I've been thinking about that だけの is

㋑多く「…だけあって」「…だけのことはある」「…だけに」の形で、素質・能力・価値が相応に発揮される意を表す。(だけ［副助］の意味 - goo国語辞書)

So roughly, する甲斐 = "the result of doing...", and するだけの甲斐 = "result fitting/appropriate for doing...".

Toritoribe · 27 Oct 2017

I'm talking about the difference in usage, not in meaning. しただけの甲斐 can work in some cases where した甲斐 is not used. For instance 一日だけなら、勉強しただけの甲斐はない is valid in the case above.

raikado · 28 Oct 2017

Oh, I see. Thank you for mentioning that.

しただけのかいがない

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