きりいない / 自分が必要だ

eeky · 20 Jan 2014

Hi,

1. 同じ局には、パパともう一人、パーキンズっていう年寄りきりいないんだから。

What does きりいない mean and what does it derive from?

2. 「だけど、パーシーは僕に貸してくれなかったろうな。自分が必要だって言ってたもの。」

It seems that 自分が必要だ should mean that Percy needs the thing the speaker wants to borrow. But why does it mean that and not "自分 is important/necessary"? Why doesn't it say 自分には必要だ?

Toritoribe · 20 Jan 2014

1)
～きり…ない is the same as ～（だけ）しか…ない, meaning "only", here.

きり
［副助］《名詞「き（切）り」から転じた語。「っきり」「ぎり」の形でも用いる》体言、活用語の連用形・連体形に付く。
３（主に否定の表現と呼応して）特定の事物以外のものは存在しないという意を表す。しか。だけしか。「選手は一〇人―残っていない」「一〇〇円―持っていない」

きり［副助］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

2)
が can indicate the subject of 必要だ. As you interpreted, 自分 is the subject(= the one who needs it), not the object, in that sentence. It's the same as 自分に（は）必要だ(the thing is important/necessary for me) in meaning, but 自分が more emphasizes 自分, just like "I(= Percy), not you(= 僕), need it".

eeky · 20 Jan 2014

Thanks Toritoribe.

2) This puzzles me. Normally, Xが必要だ means that X is important/necessary, doesn't it? Why is it different in this case? Is it ever possible (in the right context) for 自分が必要だ to mean that 自分 is important/necessary?

According to English grammar, if 自分 is, as you say, the subject in 自分が必要だ, and 必要 means "important/necessary", then the phrase would have to mean "自分 is 必要", or "Percy is important/necessary". Which aspect differs in Japanese that allows 自分 to be the subject and yet 自分が必要だ to mean that something else is needed by 自分? The meaning of the word "subject"? The meaning of 必要? Something else?

Toritoribe · 21 Jan 2014

が can indicate both the subject(the person/thing that needs something) and the object(the thing that is necessary), thus, ～が必要 can mean both "~ needs something" and "(the subject) needs ~ / ~ is necessary". In the former case, を is used to indicate the object (the thing that is necessary), as in 僕が君を必要. (僕が君を必要だ is not so common, though. This structure is often used in a form 僕が君を必要としている or in an attributive clause 僕が君を必要な（わけは / ように / のに）.) It's quite the same as 好き（だ）. 君が好き can mean both "I love you" and (in the right context, e.g. in an attributive clause) "You love something".

As for the example sentence, it's obvious from the context that 自分(= Percy) is the person who needs the thing the speaker wants to borrow. (In fact, you interpreted so.) This is also the reason why the translator chose が. She would avoid using が if it's confusing. She used が to emphasize 自分, as I wrote previously, and she consciously or unconsciously judged that there's no problem to use が since the readers can't misinterpret 自分 as the one who is necessary.

eeky · 21 Jan 2014

～が必要 = "~ is necessary" accords with my understanding that 必要 is an adjective meaning "needed/necessary" (or possibly a noun meaning "(a) necessity").

But in the interpretation ～が必要 = "~ needs something", what is it that changes? Is it the interpretation of が? Does the meaning of 必要 change at all?

I also have no clear understanding of the grammar of 僕が君を必要 (though I could guess at what it means). Is there an implied verb? I understand 僕が君を必要としている better.

Toritoribe · 21 Jan 2014

必要（だ） doesn't always mean "to be necessary". It also can be used as "to need". Doesn't this make sense?

I used 僕が君を必要 just to show the structure "～が…を必要". The reason why I didn't add any conjugation suffix to it was that I wrote the difference depending on the suffix(僕が君を必要だ is not so common, 僕が君を必要な is common) right after it.

You seem to have the similar question previously.
に思える / いつどんな / だけ / 日ごろから / お願いした

eeky · 21 Jan 2014

Toritoribe said:
必要（だ） doesn't always mean "to be necessary". It also can be used as "to need". Doesn't this make sense?

If 必要(だ) is a verb meaning "to need" then, yes, the change of meaning does make sense to me. But I don't recognise this grammar pattern at all. I only recognise XがYだ as a construction with the copula. Is this something different?

Toritoribe · 21 Jan 2014

Adjectives basically expresses a state. State verbs (要る, できる, わかる) or potential form of verbs as well. お金が要る and お金が必要だ both describe the same state.

eeky · 21 Jan 2014

There is no problem with it (必要) being an adjective describing state, and だ being a copula, provided that in each interpretation it describes a different (in fact opposite) state (either "needing something" or "being needed"). Is that how I should understand it?

Toritoribe · 21 Jan 2014

Exactly. As I wrote previously, writers/speakers, consciously or unconsciously, choose a particle(or any other words) that can convey what they want to say without being misinterpreted by the readers/listners. If it's confusing, they would avoid using it and choose another expression.

See the video clip linked below. He sang 君を好きでよかった. This sentence is put at the very begining of the lyrics. There's no context there, thus, 君が好きでよかった can be misinterpreted "I'm glad you love me/something". That's why he chose を. We use language like this, don't we?

eeky · 22 Jan 2014

Toritoribe said:
Exactly.

OK, thanks, this is what I didn't know. I don't have any difficulty with 必要 having two different senses, if that's the way it is. However, I don't understand why Japanese-English dictionaries don't list both. The only meanings I ever see for adjective 必要are "necessary", "needed", "essential", etc. etc., which only covers one of the two. Are we somehow meant to automatically understand, just from a general knowledge of the Japanese language, that it can also mean "needing"? Is this some general rule or feature of the language?

Toritoribe · 22 Jan 2014

必要なら資金を用立てましょう
I'll lend you money if you need some.

ひつよう【必要】の英語・英訳 - 和英辞書 - goo辞書
The sentece above means あなたが必要なら資金を用立てましょう. This is an example of "to need".

State verbs, the potential form or -tai form of verbs, or adjectives can have those two different senses, since が can indicate both the subject and the object of these words.

きりいない / 自分が必要だ

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