〜まだVていません Question

WonkoTheSane · 9 Nov 2015

In a past Japanese lesson, we worked on 〜もうVてあります and 〜まだVていません.
Examples from class:
A:コーヒーが飲みたい。
B:コーヒーはもうテーブルの上に置いてありますよ。
A:ありがとう。

And:
A:明日は会議です。Bさん、資料は作ってありますか。
B:あ、すみません。まだ作っていません。
A: ええっ、大丈夫ですか。

Today I was trying to use the form in an email and this is the sentence I wrote:
僕は沖縄の他の島にまだ行っていません。

For context, I was responding to an email from the other party (native Japanese speaker) who mentioned they had visited Okinawa's other islands during their visit to Okinawa.

Questions I have:

1. Is the sentence correctly expressing that I have not yet gone to Okinawa's other islands?
2. Is 沖縄の他の島 a correct way of expressing the concept of Okinawa's outlying islands?

In the email to which I was replying, 他の島 was used, so I stuck to that instead of trying to fit 隣 because I figured modeling what a native speaker wrote made sense. However, in hindsight, I think 沖縄の他の島 feels unwieldy and that I was trying too hard to fit 他の島 into an unnatural position with 沖縄の.

I was considering:
僕は沖縄の隣島にまだ行っていません。

3. Would this have worked?

It feels more natural to me, but I don't know.

Thanks!

Kraise · 10 Nov 2015

1) - If you've never been there , "行ったことがありません" could convey that meaning a little bit better.

2) Both of them are understandable ,the second one looks more elegant too (though I cant find a dictionary entry for 隣島). Since this question also interests me, I'd like to wait for a more seasoned reply as well

Mike Cash · 10 Nov 2015

離島 (りとう) is the word you want.

Toritoribe · 10 Nov 2015

Another choice is 沖縄本島以外の島には行ったことがありません。

mdchachi · 10 Nov 2015

Keep in mind the form you're learning here isn't always used to say you've never done something. It's used to say you haven't done something. I think in your Okinawa example it's clear from the context. But if you said something like まだスーパーに行っていません I'd take it to mean you haven't gone to the store yet (as opposed to never having been to a store), unless the context leads me to believe otherwise.

Mike Cash · 10 Nov 2015

mdchachi said:
Keep in mind the form you're learning here isn't always used to say you've never done something. It's used to say you haven't done something. I think in your Okinawa example it's clear from the context. But if you said something like まだスーパーに行っていません I'd take it to mean you haven't gone to the store yet (as opposed to never having been to a store), unless the context leads me to believe otherwise.

I would also infer a plan or intent to go to the store later on in the day.

WonkoTheSane · 10 Nov 2015

Kraise said:
1) - If you've never been there , "行ったことがありません" could convey that meaning a little bit better.

I need to work on こと, I honestly don't really understand it. Every time I think I do, I find I'm using it wrong, so I often avoid it.

Mike Cash said:
離島 (りとう) is the word you want.

Thanks! From googling it looks like I want 沖縄離島 and not 沖縄の離島, is this correct?

Toritoribe said:
Another choice is 沖縄本島以外の島には行ったことがありません。

Thank you, my understanding of that is: "Aside from the main island of Okinawa, I have not been to the (Okinawan) islands." Correct?

Is the reason I want to use には here because I am using 以外? It feels like には supports 以外 in increasing specificity.

Can I say: 沖縄本島以外の島にはまだ行っていませんけど、沖縄に行く時その島が見に行きたいですよ。 To mean "I have not yet been to the outlying islands of Okinawa though I have been to the main island, but when I return to Okinawa I want to go to see them!"

Or have I totally lost the plot here?

mdchachi said:
Keep in mind the form you're learning here isn't always used to say you've never done something. It's used to say you haven't done something. I think in your Okinawa example it's clear from the context. But if you said something like まだスーパーに行っていません I'd take it to mean you haven't gone to the store yet (as opposed to never having been to a store), unless the context leads me to believe otherwise.

Mike Cash said:
I would also infer a plan or intent to go to the store later on in the day.

Thanks! Looking back through my lesson notes I see every example my teacher used in class shows exactly this, but I just didn't catch that nuance at the time.

Mike Cash · 11 Nov 2015

There's no getting around こと. What seems to be the trouble with it? Maybe we can help you out.

WonkoTheSane · 11 Nov 2015

Mike Cash said:
There's no getting around こと. What seems to be the trouble with it? Maybe we can help you out.

I'm honestly not sure. All I'm positive of is that every time I use it I get quizzical looks, though I stopped trying quite a while ago so perhaps it's seeped in a bit better. My classes haven't really gotten to it yet, so my understanding is only based on what I've read informally.

Here's what I think I understand: こと is used to abstract. It takes something concrete and turns it into an abstract idea of it. As in 食べる to eat vs 食べること the idea of eat.

As an off the cuff example sentence:
私は飛行機で旅行することがとても早いと思います。

I'm trying to say: "I think travel by airplane is very fast."

But I don't know how "...行ったことがありません" as above connects with this. It seems quite different in meaning.

mdchachi · 11 Nov 2015

WonkoTheSane said:
But I don't know how "...行ったことがありません" as above connects with this.

This is a set pattern you should memorize without over analyzing it.

WonkoTheSane said:
As an off the cuff example sentence:
私は飛行機で旅行することがとても早いと思います。

You're right, this is kind of awkward. :blackeye: I can explain further later but probably by the time I come back somebody else will have already done it.

Mike Cash · 11 Nov 2015

…飛行機での旅行…

Toritoribe · 11 Nov 2015

As already pointed out, ～たことがある is an expression for experience. This is a set phrase.

WonkoTheSane said:
From googling it looks like I want 沖縄離島 and not 沖縄の離島, is this correct?

沖縄の離島 is more common.

WonkoTheSane said:
Thank you, my understanding of that is: "Aside from the main island of Okinawa, I have not been to the (Okinawan) islands." Correct?

沖縄本島以外の島: the islands other than the main island of Okinawa

WonkoTheSane said:
Is the reason I want to use には here because I am using 以外? It feels like には supports 以外 in increasing specificity.

は works as the contrastive marker, thus, 沖縄本島以外の島には is an emphasized expression of 沖縄本島以外の島に (emphasizing "though I have been to the main island").

WonkoTheSane said:
Can I say: 沖縄本島以外の島にはまだ行っていませんけど、沖縄に行く時その島が見に行きたいですよ。 To mean "I have not yet been to the outlying islands of Okinawa though I have been to the main island, but when I return to Okinawa I want to go to see them!"

I would say 沖縄本島以外の島にはまだ行ったことはありませんが、沖縄に戻ったときは見にいきたいです。, but your sentence can no doubt convey what you want to say.

WonkoTheSane · 12 Nov 2015

mdchachi said:
This is a set pattern you should memorize without over analyzing it.

That's funny, I never really noticed it before but since you mentioned it I've been seeing it everywhere I read and I can't even count how may times I heard it in class today.

Mike Cash said:
…飛行機での旅行…

での is either brand new to me or I've glossed over it in the past, I'm not sure. Wouldn't surprise me if I was taught it, seems like I need to be taught every Japanese lesson 10 times or more before it sticks.
It seems like:
XでY - using X
XでのY - the use of X

Is this correct?

Toritoribe said:
I would say 沖縄本島以外の島にはまだ行ったことはありませんが、沖縄に戻ったときは見にいきたいです。, but your sentence can no doubt convey what you want to say.

As Mike said, can't escape the こと, hmm?

Is ...たことはありません here only used with ない or can it also be used with ある when I want to contrast (or does this mess up the set phrase)？

lanthas · 12 Nov 2015

WonkoTheSane said:
での is either brand new to me or I've glossed over it in the past, I'm not sure.

If the particle attaches to a verb, it doesn't get の: 飛行機で行く, I go by plane.
On the other hand if it's attached to a noun, の is added: 飛行機での旅行(は速い), travel by plane (is fast).
This pattern can be used with other base particles as well, e.g.: 彼と話す (I talk with him) <-> 彼との会話 (my conversation with him)

Toritoribe · 12 Nov 2015

As I wrote, ～たことがある is a set phrase "already have an experience to do".

は works as the contrastive marker also in affirmative sentences. 沖縄本島に行ったことはあります implies, for instance, "I have been to the main island of Okinawa, but never lived there". As you can see, は gives the contrast the word right before it.

沖縄本島以外の島には
"the islands other than the main island of Okinawa" vs "the main island of Okinawa"

行ったことは
"to have been to the main island" vs "to have lived there"

WonkoTheSane · 12 Nov 2015

Toritoribe said:
As I wrote, ～たことがある is a set phrase "already have an experience to do".

は works as the contrastive marker also in affirmative sentences. 沖縄本島に行ったことはあります implies, for instance, "I have been to the main island of Okinawa, but never lived there". As you can see, は gives the contrast the word right before it.

沖縄本島以外の島には
"the islands other than the main island of Okinawa" vs "the main island of Okinawa"

行ったことは
"to have been to the main island" vs "to have lived there"

Thanks very much!

〜まだVていません Question

WonkoTheSane

先輩

Kraise

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

mdchachi

Moderator

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

WonkoTheSane

先輩

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

WonkoTheSane

先輩

mdchachi

Moderator

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

WonkoTheSane

先輩

lanthas

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

WonkoTheSane

先輩

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