他のスレッドで見つけた英語表現について質問するスレッド

Kyoko_desu · 7 Jul 2006

This is where you post your questions about the English expression you came across in other threads.

It's been three months since I joined this forum and I've been enjoying and learning alot, for sure. However, I sometimes find some English sentences too difficult to understand even with a help from my dictionary. I really wish to post and ask "Excuse me, but what do you mean by ( )? or "What does that word ( ) mean?". but since I know it would go "off topic" if I did that, and I hate to bother people like that in the non-language-learning threads,
I've actually never done it.

So, I've decided to create this thread and bring all the questions I have and I will find in the whole forum. I'm going to link the thread, give the post number and copy and paste the sentence. So please help me. Thanks in advance.

と、ここまで英語で書きましたが、ここからは日本語で・・・
なかなか他のスレッドで英語のわからないところがあっても質問することができないので、
ここに持ってきて質問させて下さい。
どなたでも（英語ネイティブじゃなくても、英語の先生じゃなくても）いいんです。
私の英語の勉強のお手伝いをしてください。よろしくお願いします。
あ、それから、私以外の方でも、質問があればどうぞ、このスレッドを使ってください。
いっしょに勉強しましょうね。
と、言うことで、まず最初の質問なんですが。

thread title
What connotation does the term "gaijin" have for you?

post number #144
Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle←この文です

このpot と kettle を辞書で調べたら、

The pot calls [is calling] the kettle black. / The pot can't call the kettle black.
《諺》自分のことを棚にあげて他人を非難する［責める］ことはできない。／目くそ鼻くそを笑う。
◆【語源】薪で調理していた時代、鍋もやかんも使っているうちにすすがついて同様に黒くなった。
「鍋がやかんを黒いと言っているようなもの」という意味から。

と、書いてありました。だから、この場合の「ポットさん」と「ケトルさん」はMaciamo さんとMike Cash さんで、ふたりがある意味、このスレッドでは名コンビ/迷コンビのような関係にあるということはわかりました。
問題はそのニュアンスで、この文を書いたStinger さんは、両者を単におもしろいコンビ（またはライバル）として見ているのか、辞書に書いてあったことわざにあったように、「目くそ」や「鼻くそ」のように「どっちもどっちじゃん」と見なしてちょっとバカにしているのか、どうなんでしょうか？
また、この表現はよく使われますか？

Mikawa Ossan · 7 Jul 2006

Kyoko_desu said:
Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle←この文です
このpot と kettle を辞書で調べたら、
と、書いてありました。だから、この場合の「ポットさん」と「ケトルさん」はMaciamo さんとMike Cash さんで、ふたりがある意味、このスレッドでは名コンビ/迷コンビのような関係にあるということはわかりました。
問題はそのニュアンスで、この文を書いたStinger さんは、両者を単におもしろいコンビ（またはライバル）として見ているのか、辞書に書いてあったことわざにあったように、「目くそ」や「鼻くそ」のように「どっちもどっちじゃん」と見なしてちょっとバカにしているのか、どうなんでしょうか？
また、この表現はよく使われますか？

「目くそ」や「鼻くそ」という解釈はあっていると思います。だから両方とも悪いということになります。非常に簡単な説明だけど、よろしいでしょうか。

享子さんは鋭いね！そんな難しい表現でも正しい解釈を見通すなんて・・・すごい！

nice gaijin · 7 Jul 2006

By all means, feel free to ask for clarification when you run into a phrase that stumps you. It's very common for people to rearrange English ことわざ or allude to them in creative ways.

In the situation you're referring to, I believe Stinger was using that particular phrase to bluntly tell Maciamo that he is guilty of what he accused Mike of doing. It does have a slightly insulting connotation, but with all the heated debates going on lately, everyone has been a bit hot-headed. I'm taking no stance on the issue, just trying to shed some light on the language used.

Mikawa Ossan · 7 Jul 2006

I took it to mean that both Maciamo and Mike Cash were correct in their accusations, thereby cancelling each other out.

Elizabeth · 7 Jul 2006

nice gaijin said:
By all means, feel free to ask for clarification when you run into a phrase that stumps you. It's very common for people to rearrange English 窶堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｭ窶堋ｴ or allude to them in creative ways.
In the situation you're referring to, I believe Stinger was using that particular phrase to bluntly tell Maciamo that he is guilty of what he accused Mike of doing. It does have a slightly insulting connotation, but with all the heated debates going on lately, everyone has been a bit hot-headed. I'm taking no stance on the issue, just trying to shed some light on the language used.

What were the accusations ? I doubt it had anything particular to do with the 'relationship' or 'rivalry' between Mike Cash and Maciamo and the phrase isn't usually used in that context. They both simply happen to be two of the most provocative and antagonistic members in this case apparently going after each other.

ﾂﾂ身窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ出窶堋ｽﾅｽK窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙仰。

nice gaijin · 7 Jul 2006

Elizabeth said:
What were the accusations?

Maciamo basically said that Mike was badmouthing him, and Stinger used the phrase to say that Maciamo did the same thing.

I doubt it had anything particular to do with the 'relationship' or 'rivalry' between Mike Cash and Maciamo and the phrase isn't usually used in that context. They both simply happen to be two of the most provocative and antagonistic members in this case apparently going after each other.

I agree, I was thinking that the recent friction might have set the stage for even more antagonizing statements.

Silverpoint · 7 Jul 2006

nice gaijin said:
Maciamo basically said that Mike was badmouthing him, and Stinger used the phrase to say that Maciamo did the same thing.

Yes, this was what I was intended to mean. Maciamo did indeed accuse Mike Cash of badmouthing him and I was suggesting that Maciamo didn't have a particularly strong position from which to accuse others of doing such a thing.

I can see that by twisting the phrase a little to refer to Mr. Pot and Mr. Kettle it could have seemed like I was commenting on both Mike and Maciamo, but my intention was only to point out Maciamo's behaviour as I felt that Mike wasn't behaving in a hypocritical manner.

Grandpa Frank · 7 Jul 2006

Ahhh My Beauty..........

anytime you see me in chat, feel free to join me there and I will help you with anything I can.

Uncle Frank

Kyoko_desu · 7 Jul 2006

皆さん、迅速な説明と優しいお言葉をありがとうございました！
最初に「説明は日本語でなくても英語でもいいですからお願いします。」と書き忘れたので戻ってきたら、もうこんなにたくさんの方のお返事が・・・助かります、ありがとうございます。

Thank you so much for the explanations and also for the kind words, everyone! I came back here to edit my first post because I'd forgotten to write "Your explanations don't have to be in Japanese, English is also fine." and found all those replies already!! I really appreciate your quick replies. *bows*

「ちょっとでも機会があれば私の悪口を言う。」とMike Cash さんを非難したMaciamo さんに対してStinger さんは、（Maciamo さんも以前に同じようなことをしたことがあったので）「どっちもどっちだ。」と感じたんですね？それをストレートに表現せずに、ことわざをちょっと自分なりにアレンジして書いたもの、と考えればいいでしょうか。
実際にはStinger さんとしては、両者に対してというよりは、Maciamo さんに対して「あなただって同様のことをしたことがあるんだから、Mike Cash さんをそういうふうに責めるべきじゃないでしょう？」言いたかったんですね？

Stinger san thought Maciamo san should not accuse Mike Cash san for badmouthing him, because he has done the same thing before. Instead of saying it directly, Stinger san expressed his feelings by rearranging the "pot and kettle" proverb. However, his accusation was not towards both of them but rather only towards Maciamo. Am I right so far?

この文を強いて日本語に訳そうとしたら、
「あらあら、目くそが鼻くそを笑ってる。」のような感じになるんでしょうか？
「人のこと言えないんじゃないの？」とか「どっちもどっちだね。」でもいいでしょうか？

If you were to translate this sentence into Japanese, the translation could be like:
"Ara ara, mekuso ga hanakuso wo waratteru."
"Hito no koto ienainja naino?" or
"Docchi mo docchi dane."
Do you think those sentences will do? Are they alright?

ちょっと今、いい例文を思いつきませんが、日本語でも、ことわざをそのまま使ったり、ちょっと変えてみて使うことがあります。直接的な表現をするよりも、文に彩（いろどり）がついておもしろいですよね。
それにしても、日本語のほうの「目くそ・鼻くそ」って（笑）、ちょっと下品な表現ですよね～。

I can't think of any good examples for now, but we also use proverbs and sometimes rearrange them. I really don't know how to say this in English, but let me try....You can sometimes make the sentence more colorful by that than just saying things directly.
By the way, our "mekuso and hanakuso" expression is a bit gehin, hehehe.

Elizabeth · 8 Jul 2006

"Ara ara, mekuso ga hanakuso wo waratteru."
"Hito no koto ienainja naino?" or
"Docchi mo docchi dane."
Do you think those sentences will do? Are they alright?
ちょっと今、いい例文を思いつきませんが、日本語でも、ことわざをそのまま使ったり、ちょっと変えてみて使うことがあります。直接的な表現をするよりも、文に彩（いろどり）がついておもしろいですよね。
それにしても、日本語のほうの「目くそ・鼻くそ」って（笑）、ちょっと下品な表現ですよね～。
I can't think of any good examples for now, but we also use proverbs and sometimes rearrange them. I really don't know how to say this in English, but let me try....You can sometimes make the sentence more colorful by that than just saying things directly.
By the way, our "mekuso and hanakuso" expression is a bit gehin, hehehe.

「目くそ・鼻くそ」って（笑）、目くそ鼻くそを笑う。」と言いうともっとも自然な訳かと思うってことでしょうか？

言葉づかいを捻くれなかったけど。。。ストレートな英語に慣れているんですからね。

Mike Cash · 8 Jul 2006

nice gaijin said:
Maciamo basically said that Mike was badmouthing him, and Stinger used the phrase to say that Maciamo did the same thing.

"The pot calling the kettle black" is the original 表現, I believe. In the old days of cooking utensils being made of cast iron....they all were black. It is used in a sort of 人のこと言えない situation.

And to be fair to Maciamo here, I have no recollection of any post of his to me that I would consider as badmouthing me.

Kyoko_desu · 8 Jul 2006

Originally Posted by Elizabeth
「目くそ・鼻くそ」って（笑）、目くそ鼻くそを笑う。」と言いうともっとも自然な訳かと思うってことでしょうか？

こんにちは！Elizabeth さん。
私が「目くそ・鼻くそ」って、と笑った理由は、同じような意味のことわざの中に、英語のほうでは「なべ」と「やかん」を使っているのに対して、日本語のほうは「目くそ」とか「鼻くそ」といった、普段は（特に女性は）あまり使わないような汚い言葉を用いているからです。
「目くそ・鼻くそ」って（笑）の後ろに「いう、（汚らしいから）言いにくい言葉をわざわざ使わずに、もうちょっといい例えがなかったんでしょうかね～。」という部分が省略されている、と考えてください。

私が当時の日本人だったら、例えば、「ワサビがカラシのことを『辛い辛い！！』という。」ということわざを作ったかも知れませんね。

Originally Posted by Mike Cash
And to be fair to Maciamo here, I have no recollection of any post of his to me that I would consider as badmouthing me.

OK, Mike Cash, san, I understand what you mean.

As Maciamo san took the statement of fact you made as badmouthing, people take/see things differently. Anyway, I think it's a nice thing that you made it clear that you had not actually seen him badmouthing you. And thanks for the explanation about the pot and the kettle thing. It was a happy surprise for me to find you on a language learning thread. Yay!

Kyoko_desu · 8 Jul 2006

Question ②

thread title
When you are over the hill
Post #1
When you are over the hill ←これです

In this thread, I understand that they are talking about deleting accounts. The original poster nurizeko san wants his account in Eupedia forum to be deleted, and they are talking about what deleting an account would affect the posts he's made and stuff.

Then what is the thread title really supposed to mean?
My dictionary says "being over the hill" means:

中年の (middle-aged)
疲れきった (tired and exhausted)
ほぼ完成した (almost completed)
（病気の）峠を越した (has passed the critical point)

Those definitions don't really seem to have anything to do with deleting accounts in a forum to me. What kind of "hill" did nurizeko san mean there? Maybe he meant he was fed up with and got tired of the problems there and decided to leave?

Yoroshiku onegaishimasu.

Elizabeth · 8 Jul 2006

As Maciamo san took the statement of fact you made as badmouthing, people take/see things differently. Anyway, I think it's a nice thing that you made it clear that you had not actually seen him badmouthing you.

The proverb works whether Maciamo had a past history of tormenting and attacking Mike in particular or not. Stinger only had to react to Maciamo's perceived tendency
to 'badmouth' *really hate that word members, as an integral part of his personality and persona.

「 Badmouthing, 暴言を吐く、」は、言い方によって聞く手の取り方が大きく変わっています（きます？）ね。

Maciamo さんに、Mike Cash さんが批判された事が無くっても。。。
Maciamo さんに対してStinger さんは、「他人にそんなことばを言わないほうがいい」という風に伝えてみてたそうです。そのことわざを使うのは二人の間に何かの関係があるなど
とは必ずしも言わないですよ。

日本語を訂正してくださいね。

Elizabeth · 8 Jul 2006

Those definitions don't really seem to have anything to do with deleting accounts in a forum to me. What kind of "hill" did nurizeko san mean there? Maybe he meant he was fed up with and got tired of the problems there and decided to leave?

Over the hill という表現を使うだけでは、やはり、意味がつかみにくいです。
それは状況を説明をあまりよくしないでしょうね。

そのフォーラムで、あまり時間がかかられなかったけど、そんなひどく不快にさせることなんてって
あるかな？

Mike Cash · 8 Jul 2006

Kyoko_desu said:
thread title
When you are over the hill

Then what is the thread title really supposed to mean?

We also have in English the expression "misery loves company".

So I will just comfort you by saying that I don't have the slightest clue what that thread title meant.

Elizabeth · 9 Jul 2006

Mike Cash said:
We also have in English the expression "misery loves company".
So I will just comfort you by saying that I don't have the slightest clue what that thread title meant.

Get me the hell outta this stupid forum, dammit !!! というよりも
Over the hill といったほうが優しい感じがするんでしょうね。
それは、ただ、『会話」を柔らかくしていますから。

最初は、冗談だったと思ったんです。数日後まで、読むことに興味がなかったんです。

GodEmperorLeto · 9 Jul 2006

Kyoko_desu said:
Those definitions don't really seem to have anything to do with deleting accounts in a forum to me.ﾂ What kind of "hill" did nurizeko san mean there? Maybe he meant he was fed up with and got tired of the problems there and decided to leave?

"Over the hill" is usually age related, but it can also have usefulness implied, and I think that is what nurizeko meant when he entitled his thread "When you're over the hill". He didn't want any part of Eupedia anymore, it had outlived its usefulness to him. Or maybe he feels like he no longer has anything to contribute to Eupedia. Either way, he's been there too long.

Mike Cash · 9 Jul 2006

Come to think of it......

Wasn't "going over the hill" once upon a time British army slang for desertion?

Kyoko_desu · 10 Jul 2006

Thank you very much, Mike Cash san, Elizabeth san, and GodEmperorLeto san.
By reading your replies, I came to think the title probably means that the poster really wants to get out of(escape from) Eupedia forum because he can no longer see usefullness in it or something like that.
Because, as Elizabeth san said, he said it 柔らかく、and also if the phrase was really used to refer to desertion just as Mike Cash san assumes, なかなかしゃれたタイトルだと思います。

By the way, "misery loves company" is in Japanese, 同病相憐れむ(doubyou ai awaremu.) It's really interesting every Japanese proverb does have English ones which means almost the same thing.

Kyoko_desu · 10 Jul 2006

thread title
Japanese women...

Post #37
Its times like this I wish I had popcorn.

Post #38
You are lucky. All I could understand was the word "blanket."

I have no idea why ewok85 san all of a sudden mentioned popcorn.
He was suggesting everyone chill out? Just like you eat popcorn in break time at the theatre?
And what does the blanket statement mean and why did ghettocities san say he understood only the word "blanket"? He was being sarcastic or anything?

When I saw those posts, I got totally lost and had no idea what was going on.

Glenn · 10 Jul 2006

Ewok was alluding to eating popcorn while watching movies, as you correctly guessed. It's along the lines of people liking to eat popcorn while being entertained, and he saw the thread as a form of entertainment, like a movie, so he wanted some popcorn so he could sit back and enjoy the show.

I think ghettocities was just admitting his ignorance as to what Mike Cash and GodEmperorLeto were arguing about.

Elizabeth · 10 Jul 2006

By the way, "misery loves company" is in Japanese, 同病相憐れむ (doubyou ai awaremu.) It's really interesting every Japanese proverb does have English ones which mean almost the same thing.

ちょっと違いと思いますよ。日本には、英語にないことわざが多いです。
実は、日本のことわざのリストのある各ページに直訳英語がついている本があります。
見つけてみます。

享子さんもちょっとややこしくしたいのなら、英語のポストで日本語だけの
表現を使い始めたらいいね。皆さん逃げますよ。

しかし、昔の人は日本でも、西洋でもよく言ったもので、同じような意味のものがたくさん
ありますね。

Elizabeth · 10 Jul 2006

By reading your replies, I came to think the title probably means that the poster really wants to get out of(escape from) Eupedia forum because he can no longer see the usefulness in it or something like that.

その返事に基づいて、彼にとってEupedia は役に立ったなくなったので、離れたい（出たい？
逃げたい？）かなにか、という結論を出しました。

基本的に、正しく訳されていると思いますが、確かに享子さんの言い方のほうが軽い感じですね。

助けてくださいね。

Elizabeth · 10 Jul 2006

Because, as Elizabeth san said, he said it 柔らかく、and also if the phrase was really used to refer to desertion just as Mike Cash san assumes, なかなかしゃれたタイトルだと思います。

私もそう思います。この表現は古くて役に立たなくなった何かの事を指しているという説明
を聞いたことはないですよ。１００％否定的ということではないでしょう。

Nurizuko の場合、
それは役に立ったことがないんじゃないのかと思っています。一方では、彼はほかのフォーラムについても話していましたね。。。

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