Just Cultural Differences?

Hi all. Long time lurker in these forums.

I'm not even sure if this thread should belong here but I'll just assume this will fit in the "Hot Topics" section somehow.

What I'd like to mention is about some of the racist things that I've observed among the Japanese. Now I know that most of you will just say something along the lines of "We know, now stop beating the dead horse yadda yadda yadda." But please, just hear me out.

I have gone and posted random things on various Japanese BBSs but seeing that my ISP does not end with a .jp, I might not even have the ability to post. Sometimes, they are deleted right away (for no apparent reason).

Many people here have mentioned about how nice Japanese people really are. But I think we may have forgotten that many Japanese people have a penchant for being as indirect as possible. On some anonymous BBSs like 2chan, racism seems to run rampant as soon as anonymity is granted. What bothers me is that those aren't sites that are run under racist ideologies. It's just that most people there are throwing out racist remarks and everyone seems to agree with them.

Just the other day, there was a thread started about weapons of some sort. It digressed into how Chinese people eat babies and are barbaric in general. I chimed in with some remarks about them being close-minded racists and posted links to threads from Jref that is pertinent to that particular topic. Most of them probably couldn't read English so they just ignored me. A response that caught my eye was "That site reeks of kimchi." You know...what do you say to people like that?

Another thing I remember from those sites is how they talked about how Koreans have last names only because the Japanese occupation GAVE them the education and culture to have them. Sound ridiculous? Well, people seemed to buy into it.

Now, I can't post links because I have no references from some great British documentary or whatnot that is related to this subject (also, most of those threads in these BBSs are relatively short-lived). Besides, they're all personal experiences anyway.

Yes, I have met Japanese people in person, in and out of Japan. For the most part, they were nice people. But going back to the line about how they love being indirect. I'd be worried about them talking behind my back. And I doubt that they would say anything racist to someone's face (probably afraid of getting their faces bashed in).

Granted, this isn't a life or death matter. In real life, I'd say this would never go beyond the scope of an annoyance. But to me, this annoyance isn't something I'd want to live with.

Am I just being obsessive compulsive? Or stupid? Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Welcome to JREF !

I have moved your thread to "Immigration & Foreigners" as it is related to the way Japanese perceive foreigners.

I hear many comments from Japanese people that would be considered as "racist" in most Western societies. That's almost a daily occurence, and most of the time, these Japanese have not the slightest clue that this could b "racist". There is no word for 'racism' in Japanese, and indeed when talking to people I have realised that for almost all of them the word 'racism' only means "violence against people of a different race". I have heard especially a lot of racist comments against the Chinese, and for a Japanese that cannot be "racism" as they "look the same".

Just one hour ago, I told my wife for the x time not to say "gaijin" or "gaikokujin" when she referred only to "Westerners", and say "Seiyoujin" (西洋人) or "Oubeijin" (欧米人) instead. We were in Azabu and she said that she expected to find one product in a supermarket frequented by so many "gaijins". I asked her why she didn't try a Chinese shop in our neighbourhood, if she wanted a shop fequented by "gaijins", just to make her understand my disagreement. Even after 5 years together, she won't differentiate between non-Japanese in daily speech. I think that reflects well how difficult it is for someone born and raised in Japanese society to distinguish more than between "Japanese" and "foreigners". Everytime I tell other Japanese about it, they say something like "We Japanese can't distinguish between foreigners". Of course, once again, "foreigners" mean "Westerners", as they can obviously tell a Chinese, an Indian and a European apart. This is not racism in itself, but that underlies a way of thinking common to typical racist thinking ("we" against "them" and the lack of understanding of "them").

I took a look at the 2chan board, and all I can say is that taken as a whole, it's a very juevenile place. I don't think that it's representative of the Japanese population as a whole.

Mikawa Ossan said:

I took a look at the 2chan board, and all I can say is that taken as a whole, it's a very juevenile place. I don't think that it's representative of the Japanese population as a whole.

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Aren't young people the most easily influenced by the opnions of their elders (tecahers, parents...) ? Especially in Japan (where critical sense is as rare as polar bears).

Maciamo said:

Aren't young people the most easily influenced by the opnions of their elders (tecahers, parents...) ?

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Yes, but what do you propose we do? I don't think there's much we can do about content in another forum. I know I for one am not going to join and try to change their minds. I am the grown-up far too much in my everyday life to try to police the web in my free time.:sorry:

Wow, I didn't expect to get such quick responses.

I think part of the problem is that they think racism is not bad if it can be justified. Except that they can justify it with practically anything (with "facts" pulled out of someone's *** most of the time).

And I do agree that policing the web is a waste of time. After all, they're just opinions. But as juvenile as they are, the whole reason why sites like 2chan got popular was because they can remain anonymous and "speak their minds."

Also, I don't think you can ever really change someone's mind by just telling them about something. They would have to decide for themselves. Let me stretch this observation a bit, but take a look at the KKK. I doubt that anyone would be able to convince them that what they do or believe in is wrong. I think that people are just stubborn that way.

I think a lot of it comes from the apparent fact that most Japanese don't understand what racism is.

I was talking to a friend last week about JR employees, and some of my complaints about them. It was hard for him to comprehend how the JR people treat us whities differently, because it's not anything that he had ever faced or even heard of before.

I talked to social studies teacher about human rights once. I was thinking in terms of racism and prejudice, etc. He was thinking more in terms of school violence and equality of the sexes.

Both of these people had lived abroad for some time in the past. So they might have encountered some racism, I don't know. My guess is that they haven't. Even if they had, I would assume that it was minor, and more importantly, since it never really comes up in daily life for the average Japanese person, it is easily forgotten about.

So people in Japan are mostly unaware and ignorant of racism. Of course they don't think that saying bad things about say Koreans is racist. They're both the same asians, right? They fail to see that treating someone in a certain way based purely and solely on membership of a certain ethnic or national (religious as well?) group is inherently racist for lack of a better word.

Another issue at work, I think, is the importance of the in-group in Japan. At any given time, there are a number of in-group/out-group relationships at work, and in Japanese society you behave somewhat differently towards people of different groups. This is expected and considered natural. Since Koreans are in a different group...

I think, too, that for the average Japanese racism sounds like some far-away problem. Oh it happens in America and other places, but not here in Japan! Heavens no. It's kind of like when people talk about Falun Gong in China. It just seems so far away...

There's so much more, but like I say, all we can do is plant the seed to try to make things better.

I completely agree with the last 2 posts (both Bibinbahell and Mikawa Ossan). The Japanese do not understand "racism" as we do in the West, mostly because they have never experienced it, don't think much or it and the Japanese government and society does not try to sensibilise people to it (mostly because they don't understand it, so it's only natural). Yet, when I try to explain that being treated differently or singled out as a foreigner is somewhat racist, most of them still don't understand where is the problem. So it will take a long time before things change...

Bibinbahell said:

Wow, I didn't expect to get such quick responses.

I think part of the problem is that they think racism is not bad if it can be justified. Except that they can justify it with practically anything (with "facts" pulled out of someone's *** most of the time).

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The example of this that is always used is with the recent increase in immigrant crimes (ﾅ?Oﾂ坂?伉人窶堙娯?敕?催溪?堋ｪ窶愿ｺ窶怒窶堙??伉昶?堋ｦ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙? taking about the offenders as "defective foreigners" (窶｢s窶氾??Oﾂ人ﾂ」窶堙?津??堙寂?堙ｪ窶堋ｽ窶堙ｨ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ） has become common parlance, with no awareness that Japanese criminals are never referred to similarly. Although of course racial violence is extremely low and for sure there is nothing comparable to the KKK. So I can understand their perspective to some extent....isn't there still also discrimination (xenophobia more than racism) against Japanese who have come back after an extended stay in the West ? or even ethnic Japanese born and raised overseas ?

ﾂ

I do think that the low occurrence of violent hate crimes can be attributed to the tendency for the Japanese to be passive. Even if they hate someone's guts for no apparent reason (or they were told to), they would rarely act on it.

But, again, most of these people are just plain ignorant. Ignorance breeds fear. And fear usually leads to hatred.

But even in America, it's not against the law to be a racist. You can think whatever you want unless you start to interfere with another person's livelihood (employment, emotional and physical harm). I do agree that there's only so much one can do. I'm not articulate with words. My first reaction to anything racist directed towards me would be a swift kick in the pants.

But looking on the other side of things, I'd like to share another personal account. One of my friends back in college was an exchange student in Japan. He had made a couple of friends there, mostly Westerners (Europe, American) I think. I was talking to him about how the Japanese are usually suspicious of foreigners and how they are seen as criminals. I went on and on about the subject and then he told me how his friends did, in fact, steal a lot. They never touched the bicycles but they shoplifted like crazy. Their reason? "Because it was so so easy."

I was speechless. That reminded me of an old saying of "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." It couldn't have fit better.

But this "peaceful" form of racism still angers me. People would generally think that no drastic action is necessary because no lives are being lost because of this. Which leads to a quote by Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

TOKYO, Nov. 14 - A young Japanese woman in the comic book "Hating the Korean Wave" exclaims, "It's not an exaggeration to say that Japan built the South Korea of today!" In another passage the book states that "there is nothing at all in Korean culture to be proud of." In another comic book, "Introduction to China," which portrays the Chinese as a depraved people obsessed with cannibalism, a woman of Japanese origin says: "Take the China of today, its principles, thought, literature, art, science, institutions. There's nothing attractive."

The two comic books, portraying Chinese and Koreans as base peoples and advocating confrontation with them, have become runaway best sellers in Japan in the last four months. In their graphic and unflattering drawings of Japan's fellow Asians and in the unapologetic, often offensive contents of their speech bubbles, the books reveal some of the sentiments underlying Japan's worsening relations with the rest of Asia.

.......

The reality that South Korea had emerged as a rival hit many Japanese with full force in 2002, when the countries were co-hosts of soccer's World Cup and South Korea advanced further than Japan. At the same time, the so-called Korean Wave - television dramas, movies and music from South Korea - swept Japan and the rest of Asia, often displacing Japanese pop cultural exports.

The wave, though popular among Japanese women, gave rise to a countermovement, especially on the Internet. Sharin Yamano, the young cartoonist behind "Hating the Korean Wave," began his strip on his own Web site then. "The 'Hate Korea' feelings have spread explosively since the World Cup," said Akihide Tange, an editor at Shinyusha, the publisher of the comic book. Still, the number of sales, 360,000 so far, surprised the book's editors, suggesting that the Hate Korea movement was far larger than they had believed. "We weren't expecting there'd be so many," said Susumu Yamanaka, another editor at Shinyusha. "But when the lid was actually taken off, we found a tremendous number of people feeling this way."

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Full article here http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/19/international/...

Firstly, I came across this forum few days ago, so forgive me if the same article has been posted already. This is really a great forum with so many topics and good discussions that I have not completely explored yet.

I used to think that young educated Japanese don't have any bias on their neighbors anymore but recently when I talked to my good friend, he exhibited some really ethnocentric/nationalistic views about Japan and its neighbors. And then this article surfaced. I am deeply troubled by this. Just want to know what are your opinions.

First, let me say that everyone has contributed some very insightful posts and have provided me with much to think upon. I say this because I want everyone to understand that if I write something that seems contradictory or challenging to what has already been written, I do so simply out of a desire to contribute to and expand this discussion and not out of a spirit of confrontation or disrespect. Racism is often an emotional topic to discuss, let alone experience, and I think it is great that everyone has found a forum to talk about racism in Japan here. And, I don't intend for anyone to feel attacked or that I think less of them!!! So if some of my comments are a bit personal seeming in nature, I am only trying to drive home my points. I do not consider myself better than anyone, and if you read through, I hope that I am trying to discuss the topic and not actually disparage anyone becomes evident. :sorry:

Now then, while there certainly is racism in Japan, I do not think that it is particular to the Japanese nor uniform amongst the Japanese, and these are two important points I would like to contribute to this thread.

Certainly many Japanese possess and exhibit many types of racism, but the Japanese culture and people as a whole are hardly unique (or all the same) in this sense. Some examples to highlight what I mean:

Yes, I have met Japanese people in person, in and out of Japan. For the most part, they were nice people. But going back to the line about how they love being indirect. I'd be worried about them talking behind my back. And I doubt that they would say anything racist to someone's face (probably afraid of getting their faces bashed in).

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In a way, this comment is passively racist as well. Even though this person has met Japanese people in person as individuals (and thus, I assume, understands that the Japanese people are comprised of individuals just as any other culture is comprised of individuals), it was very easy for this person to add a 'but' and start referring to the Japanese broadly as 'they' and 'them'. This then makes the argument that the Japanese in general have a problem of being racist rather than there are individuals in Japan who have the problem of being racist. Do I think this person is racist. No. Just victim to the same type of easy thinking we all are, including the Japanese and including me, the type of thinking that makes it easy to lump people of another into groups rather than view them as individuals.
Where I live in the U.S., there are many individuals who are racists, but I am not. I would be distressed if someone looked at people who are racist here and then made a broad statement that Americans have a problem of being racist when I personally desire to be understanding and accepting of any person and their culture (I'm an anthropologist, so it goes with the job ).

Some more examples:

So people in Japan are mostly unaware and ignorant of racism.

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Why not say, "So some people in Japan . . . " or "So some Japanese . . . "?

The Japanese do not understand "racism" as we do in the West . . .

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All Japanese do not understand racism? Everyone in the West understands racism? Everyone in the West understands racism the same way? Or, do some Japanese (even if it is a lot or a majority) do not understand racism and some do, just as some 'Westerners' do and don't understand racism?

I was talking to him about how the Japanese are usually suspicious of foreigners and how they are seen as criminals.

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Are only the Japanese suspicious of foreigners, or do we see this occur frequently in other cultures as well? I can tell you that in the U.S., I have talked with many people who hold negative views of Mexican immigrants (of which my grandfather is one), so perhaps fear/distrust of foreigners is not a singularly Japanese phenomenon, ne?

Am I pointing these examples out to say how bad everyone is (and that I'm not) and that racism in Japan isn't a problem? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I am not trying to judge anyone. I have said many things myself that are as equally bad or even worse. It is a difficult thing to not peculiarize people of a culture different than one's own. Also, there are many Japanese who are racist and xenophobic.
But there are many good Japanese as well who are sensitive to people of different cultures. Also, there are Koreans, Chinese, Americans . . . you name it! . . . who are racist and xenophobic in exactly the same way they believe the Japanese to be! So this racism thing we are talking about . . . well, it seems to be a problem that people from all cultures must struggle with, not just the Japanese.

And, as if I probably haven't either bored or angered you enough already . . . :sorry:

There is no word for 'racism' in Japanese

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Actually, there is. 人種的差別 (jin-shu-teki-sa-betsu).

I was talking to a friend last week about JR employees, and some of my complaints about them. It was hard for him to comprehend how the JR people treat us whities differently, because it's not anything that he had ever faced or even heard of before.

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I'm sorry you had such a poor experience with the JR employees. I had great experiences. Does this invalidate your experiences? Absolutely not! I believe you when you say you have had problems. I just saying, perhaps not all JR employees are the same, therefore maybe the conflict is with bad JR employees in specific rather than JR employees as a whole?
Just as I imagine there to be bad American anthropologists, I hope to not be one myself. Therefore if someone has a bad experience with an American anthropologist I hope they will still be open to being friends or associate with me.

To reverse course on myself somewhat, I agree that there are issues of cultural racism and insitutionalized racism in Japan that are serious and troubling! For example, there is the fact that ethnic Koreans who are Japanese citizens (including those born and raised in Japan) are regularly discriminated against. Also, consider the reaction towards Chinese exchange students in general following the violent crime spree of those three exchange students, what was it, last year? Year before? And, there is of course the paired issues of the history textbook and Yasukuni shrine controversies. Let us also not forget the discrimination that a foreigner can face in trying to secure a residence in Japan! Yes, there are certainly a lot of problems to be addressed regarding racism in Japan. But . . .

1) Japanese are individuals and not all are racist!
2) These problems of racism are not only found in Japan but in culture after culture and country after country around the world. Please, when you discuss the problem of racism, don't treat it as if it is a problem specific to one culture alone! It isn't a Japanese problem, or a Korean problem, or an American problem; it is a human problem.

OK. I'm done. I hope I made sense and I hope I didn't make anyone too angry with my comments. Sometimes my mind wanders . . . and sometimes my words are abrasive. *sigh* I humbly hope I made a contribution to this thread and I ask that you forgive me if I expressed things poorly. :sorry:

Actually, there is. 人種的差別 (jin-shu-teki-sa-betsu).

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Maciamo probably believed he was was referring specifically to the noun 'racism,' which can be katakana English, not racial discrimination, racial
or racist or other forms of the word. Although I've often seen
人種(差別)主義 translated as racism whether that is technically correct or not...

Elizabeth said:

Correct me if this is wrong but I believe Maciamo was referring specifically to the noun 'racism,' which is katakana English, not racial or racist or other varients.

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I can neither confirm nor deny your hypothesis, because I don't know exactly what Maciamo was thinking when he was writing about racism the word. I just took his statement at face value, that he believed that there is not a word for racism in Japanese, a statement with which I disagree.

I am not sure exactly if this is the question you are asking.

人種的差別 (jin-shu-teki-sa-betsu) is, as far as I am aware, a noun and translates as 'racial discrimination' which is what I understand racism to be.

Are you saying that racism and racial discrimination are different, that 人種的差別 is not a noun, or that what Maciamo specifically meant was that there is not the katakana-ized word racism in Japanese? (レーシイズン？ Gosh, I'm not even sure how the heck to katakana-ize that!)

Are you saying that racism and racial discrimination are different, that 人種的差別 is not a noun, or that what Maciamo specifically meant was that there is not the katakana-ized word racism in Japanese? (レーシイズン？ Gosh, I'm not even sure how the heck to katakana-ize that!)

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He seems to have meant what as it appears on the surface, that the word
レイシズム is not a native Japanese word. Whether it has been fully integrated in the language and is now more common in translations for racism than 人種(差別)主義 or 人種的差別 you'll have to refer back to him for clarification.

Kokusu said:

In a way, this comment is passively racist as well. Even though this person has met Japanese people in person as individuals (and thus, I assume, understands that the Japanese people are comprised of individuals just as any other culture is comprised of individuals), it was very easy for this person to add a 'but' and start referring to the Japanese broadly as 'they' and 'them'. This then makes the argument that the Japanese in general have a problem of being racist rather than there are individuals in Japan who have the problem of being racist. Do I think this person is racist. No. Just victim to the same type of easy thinking we all are, including the Japanese and including me, the type of thinking that makes it easy to lump people of another into groups rather than view them as individuals.

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If you are saying that generalising (=talking about of the majority of people one has met in a particular ethnic group) is a kind of racist behaviour, I just cannot agree. Discussion is impossible without generalisations, especially when it comes to differences between cultures or national groups. It's important to understand that a generalisation never means all people in that group, but the trend, i.e. what is the most usual, the norm rather than the exception. If in a group of 100 people 30 think similarily, and every single of the other 700 have a unique way of thinking, then this 30% defines the trend, even if it is not even a majority. That is how it is possible to compare cultures, societies, education system, national charaters, etc. If we needed 100% or even 90% of people sharing a common trait, discussion would be very limited, and in most cases impossible.

Why not say, "So some people in Japan . . . " or "So some Japanese . . . "?

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For me, I understand it as implied that when it is not explicitly written "all", it is the trend (most representative segment, even if only 30%) or majority (50% or more). I cannot imagine how you can deal with most situations in daily life if everytime a "most" is ommited, you understand it as "all". It just doesn't make sense.

Are only the Japanese suspicious of foreigners, or do we see this occur frequently in other cultures as well?

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Again, I can't understand why you say that. Why would you assume that ONLY the Japanese are "suspicious of foreigners" when nobody said that ? The world is composed of thousands of cultures and hundreds of countries. This forum is composed of members from many different cultures and countries, with different experiences and standards. I could very well say that for me 'the Japanese are consumerist'; yet it doesn't mean that I find ONLY the Japanese to be consumerist. I also find Americans to be so, and maybe even more than the Japanese. But compared to ME and the environment in which I grew up, it is how I see them. Everything is relative and should be understood in relation with the speaker's culture/country of origin and own experience. And again, even if I say "the Japanese are consumerists" (in my eyes), I could always find thousands of exceptions. It doesn't matter as the trend is still true to me. Do you know the proverb "the exception confirms the rule" ?

kokusu said:

It is a difficult thing to not peculiarize people of a culture different than one's own. Also, there are many Japanese who are racist and xenophobic.
But there are many good Japanese as well who are sensitive to people of different cultures. Also, there are Koreans, Chinese, Americans . . . you name it! . . . who are racist and xenophobic in exactly the same way they believe the Japanese to be! So this racism thing we are talking about . . . well, it seems to be a problem that people from all cultures must struggle with, not just the Japanese.

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With this kind of thinking, cultural comparisons are impossible. If it is true that you can find racists in every country, there proportion differs, and the way racism is expressed and the people to whom it is directed differ even more. It is undeniable that compared to most Western countries, the Japanese tend not to understand very well what the word "racism" mean and associate it only with violent behaviour. It is also fairly clear to anyone who has raised this subjects with numerous Japanese that their is a constancy with which the majoriy of them have a poor image of Chinese people, and very often hold degrading, if not racistic views about them. Yet it is also obvious that very few contemporary Japanese would commit violence toward people upon whom they look down in such racist way.

kokusu said:

Actually, there is. 人種的差別 (jin-shu-teki-sa-betsu).

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This word only means "racial discrimination". I am pretty sure you got it from checking in a dictionary, because my electronic dictionary has this word too (including 2 others), but has a further long explanation about the meaning of the term in English, with examples :
"racismとは人種的優越感・憎悪感・誤解・無知などに基づいた他人種への不当な差別のことで、具体的な言語表現としては、Chink(=Chinese), Jap (=Japanese), nigger (=negro), Paki (=Pakistani)などの語に表れる。現在、英米では人種差別は法的に禁止されている。"

Translation : "racism is injust discrimination toward a different kind of people, based on a racial sense of superiority, feeling of hatred, misunderstanding, ignorance, etc., and are expressed with specific words such as Chink(=Chinese), Jap (=Japanese), nigger (=negro), Paki (=Pakistani), etc. At present, racial discrimination is prohibited by law in the UK and USA."

I think this speaks for itself. The very fact that they have to explain that much (and think that "negro" is the normal expression for "Black" !), and explain that racism is prohibited by law in the UK and US, show us how ignorant normal Japanese are about what racism is. I remember showing this explanation in my dictionary to a few Japanese, and their reaction was the stereotypical "eeh" of surprise mixed with interest, showing that they had no idea such a thing existed.

Many Japanese with whom I have discussed about racism just uses the English word when speaking Japanese, as there is no real equivalent.

kokusu said:

人種的差別 (jin-shu-teki-sa-betsu) is, as far as I am aware, a noun and translates as 'racial discrimination' which is what I understand racism to be.

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There is a big difference between racism and racial discrimination. Racism can be graded like this :

1) in the mind only (just an unexpressed opinion)
2) in expression (e.g. calling a Black a "nigger", or saying "these Chinese are so inferior to us")
3) involving indirect actions (e.g. not recruiting someone because of their race)
4) involving direct, non-violent actions (e.g. refusing entry to someone based on their race, or the police assuming people of different races are more suspect)
5) involving direct, violent actions (e.g. beating up, killing...)

You may be right that (1) is very common the world over, but I have found that (2) is more common in Japan than in the West because the Japanese don't think it's wrong, and although (5) is very rare in Japan, (3) and (4) are quite common. I admit that they can also be common in the West, but at least their are laws prohibiting such behaviour, and not really in Japan. What's more, Japanese racism has the particularity to be directed at all foreigners regardless of race, nationality, education or wealth - and even sometimes at Japanese born and raised abroad. I don't know any other developed country where such a situation of "universal racism" (at least "n mind", and often in non-violent acts too) prevails.

Racism in the West is usually directed at economic immigrants that cause troubles, or one particular race (usually Black people). There is almost no racism between Caucasian people, nowadays (like there was 100 years ago, eventually leading to WWI). Furthermore, almost all Westerners know that racism, even non-violent one, is somewhat taboo, while the Japanese think it's ok if no one gets hurt. That is a radically different approach to the problem.

kuniaki said:

I used to think that young educated Japanese don't have any bias on their neighbors anymore but recently when I talked to my good friend, he exhibited some really ethnocentric/nationalistic views about Japan and its neighbors.And then this article surfaced. I am deeply troubled by this. Just want to know what are your opinions.

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Tell me more about your personal story here.

kokusu said:

In a way, this comment is passively racist as well. Even though this person has met Japanese people in person as individuals (and thus, I assume, understands that the Japanese people are comprised of individuals just as any other culture is comprised of individuals), it was very easy for this person to add a 'but' and start referring to the Japanese broadly as 'they' and 'them'.

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I think you're arguing semantics here. When people say "all," I don't think they mean every single person (all 127 million of them) are racist. I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule. But from the types of news coming out of Japan, I don't think the trend of racism is declining.

kokusu said:

This then makes the argument that the Japanese in general have a problem of being racist rather than there are individuals in Japan who have the problem of being racist. Do I think this person is racist. No. Just victim to the same type of easy thinking we all are, including the Japanese and including me, the type of thinking that makes it easy to lump people of another into groups rather than view them as individuals....Am I pointing these examples out to say how bad everyone is (and that I'm not) and that racism in Japan isn't a problem? ABSOLUTELY NOT! I am not trying to judge anyone. I have said many things myself that are as equally bad or even worse. It is a difficult thing to not peculiarize people of a culture different than one's own. Also, there are many Japanese who are racist and xenophobic.

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I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As I have mentioned earlier, I'd be hard-pressed to find people who will be racist to someone's face. I'm sure they would rather be more subtle in public. However, as soon as they get on the web, where they are completely anonymous, insults directed at foreigners and comments reaffirming their "superiority" fly around.

kokusu said:

Are only the Japanese suspicious of foreigners, or do we see this occur frequently in other cultures as well? I can tell you that in the U.S., I have talked with many people who hold negative views of Mexican immigrants (of which my grandfather is one), so perhaps fear/distrust of foreigners is not a singularly Japanese phenomenon, ne?

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I think one of the biggest differences between racism in Japan and the US is that Japan's anti-racist sentiment is virtually non-existent.
Take this link for example: Immigrants
Now, that webpage also has a skewed perspective on things, but reading it doesn't anger or revolt me like some other Japanese opinion sites. I seriously doubt that any Japanese person would take a similar stance on the issue (if the issue even existed in Japan).

kokusu said:

Actually, there is. 人種的差別 (jin-shu-teki-sa-betsu).

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Yes, but 人種差別 doesn't have the same negative ring as "racism." You can talk to Japanese people about it and their responses would be something like, "Oh, discrimination? I know it exists but it's not a big problem in Japan, unlike some other countries. Ha ha." If people don't have a negative image of it, nothing will be done about it. You take a look around the net and the general consensus is "The Chinese hates us because the government told them to. What do you expect from barbarians?" and "Koreans? They'll always hate us for no reason. You know they have 火病 (anger syndrome)."

Bibinbahell said:

You take a look around the net and the general consensus is "The Chinese hates us because the government told them to. What do you expect from barbarians?" and "Koreans? They'll always hate us for no reason. You know they have 窶ｰﾃ寂?｢a (anger syndrome)."

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That's exactly what I hear as well among Japanese. If younger generations in 2005 (read in "peaceful, cute and prosperous Japan") still think like this, it's not hard to imagine why the Japanese behaved as they did between 1933 and 1945 in East Asia.

It's also not hard to imagine why there would be a war or open conflict between Japan and China in the future, even if it's in 20 or 50 years from now...

Well . . . I expected some sort of respone to my post. Seems I was right. And, I knew it was probably going to be . . . passionate. I do worry about too much conflict, so even though I seem to disagree with a number of you (and will continue to do so in this reply), I promise to do my best to remain focused on the topic and avoid being . . . um . . . inflammatory?

Also, I am really worn out right now, so I will probably only respond to the issues that I feel most critically about. I'm sorry for this, because you all took so much time and effort to respond with full effort, and I hate to not honor your posts with my fullest effort as well. I'm a day-and-a-half from surgery and having been working as much as possible to do things while I still can . . . I'm just pooped out, and ask for your forgiveness and understanding for my hit-and-miss posts on this topic. Now onto the thick of it . . .

Maciamo said:

Discussion is impossible without generalisations, especially when it comes to differences between cultures or national groups.

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I guess we will just have to disagree on this. I think that generalizations aren't necessary to make cultural observations and comparisons. I think generalizations are convenient, but often risk inaccurate stereotyping.

On the other hand (waves the olive branch of peace), I do understand and agree in part with what you are saying. I think, for example, one might say, "Gee, the Japanese eat a lot of rice!" This doesn't necessarily mean that every Japanese person eats a lot of rice, but just that Japanese a nation/culture eat a lot of rice in comparison with other cultures. This is a generalization that can be more readily explored, supported, or refuted. For example, you could measure the per capita rice consumption on an annual basis.
But, by what standard do we measure racism and how do we compare it between cultures? What is the standard? In this sense, a generalization makes me feel very uneasy, because it seems much more problematic to objectively prove/disprove.

Bibinbahell said:

I think you're arguing semantics here. When people say "all," I don't think they mean every single person (all 127 million of them) are racist.

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Kind of continuing on the theme, I don't think this is arguing semantics. If someone says "all" I think that they mean "all" and not "some" but just decided to say "all" for the heck of it. If I say "black" I sure as heck don't mean "white". So, if a person doesn't actually mean "all", why would they say it?

Bibinbahell said:

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As I have mentioned earlier, I'd be hard-pressed to find people who will be racist to someone's face. I'm sure they would rather be more subtle in public. However, as soon as they get on the web, where they are completely anonymous, insults directed at foreigners and comments reaffirming their "superiority" fly around.

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Um . . . I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me about. In the quote you refer to I don't make any mention about whether or not someone is racist to other people to their faces or not. So, I am not sure what point you are counterarguing, but I would like to understand. Could you explain this part a little more to me?

Maciamo said:

I think this speaks for itself. The very fact that they have to explain that much (and think that "negro" is the normal expression for "Black" !), and explain that racism is prohibited by law in the UK and US, show us how ignorant normal Japanese are about what racism is. I remember showing this explanation in my dictionary to a few Japanese, and their reaction was the stereotypical "eeh" of surprise mixed with interest, showing that they had no idea such a thing existed.

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What do you mean "explain that much"? Dictionaries have definitions, many of them quite long. I'm not sure that I would agree that length of a dictionary explanation equals widespread cultural ignorance. I believe that to be a very tenuous connection.

"(and think that "negro" is the normal expression for "Black" !)" - And is "black" the normal expression for African or African-American?

Finally, I have had many conversations with many of my Japanese friends about racism, and they didn't need a dictionary to understand the term or the discussion. This is why I feel that generalizing the Japanese about the racism issue can be dangerous. Some Japanese are, some aren't. I work with some causasian Americans who don't think it is racist to call African-Americans niggers. Does this mean that Americans are racist in general, too?

OK, well, I'm going to wrap this up here. Tough topic to discuss, but I am glad we all are doing so! This is the kind of hard discussions that need to be had between people of different cultures and experiences if we hope to improve things, I think.
A last question . . . I kind of want to share this thread with a former professor of mine who has her doctorate in Anthropology and specialized in Japanese cultural studies to get her take on the flow of discussion and her insight into the issue. Is this OK with everyone?

Hello, Kokusu! Welcome to the fray!

Unfortunately I don't have the time to quote everything I want to, or any of if, really, so please forgive me!

First of all, I did not say that "some" Japanese are largely ignorant or unaware of racism because I don't think that it's a phenomenon limited to only some Japanese. I think that it's quite widespread. At least it is in my experience.

I'm not trying to intimate whatsoever that I think the Japanese are more or less racist than anyone else when I say this. It's just that I think that as the vast majority of Japanese never come into contact with racism in their daily lives, they don't think about it very much.

As I have posted in other threads, although I personally have had some run-ins with being treated differently based solely on my appearence, I have had very few truly unpleasant experiences with racism in Japan.

I think that the Japanese are very egalitarian taken as a whole. I can't think of a single person I have ever met who decided to hate me just for being a foreigner, especially after we talked in Japanese for a while.

Sometimes this egalitarianism is taken to an extreme, however. I think I've posted elsewhere about the barber who had a bad experience with a foreign customer and decided then that he wouldn't serve foreigners again. I know he didn't consider his decision to be racist (I say this because I talked to him about it.) I don't think he was racist in his motive or thinking, although his action could easily be considered racist, especially by someone who didn't speak enough Japanese to sit down and talk to him. So the question is, is this an example of racism?

I'll leave the question open.

But the point is, think about what outrage (I hope) you'd find if a similar thing happened in America. Imagine a barber who decided that he just wouldn't accept latino customers just because he had a bad experience with one once.

Imagine how little rage you find in Japan.

I'm out of time, but in a little side note, I never thought I'd be arguing on the same side as Maciamo on such a topic!

kokusu said:

Um . . . I am not sure what you are disagreeing with me about. In the quote you refer to I don't make any mention about whether or not someone is racist to other people to their faces or not. So, I am not sure what point you are counterarguing, but I would like to understand. Could you explain this part a little more to me?

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I was merely disagreeing with you when you said that racism, in Japan's case, is just an individual problem. I actually try to not hold it against the Japanese individual for being a racist. I would assume that they didn't know any better, or that they are just a product of their society. One aspect of the problem is that their society perpetuates racism.

kokusu said:

I work with some causasian Americans who don't think it is racist to call African-Americans niggers. Does this mean that Americans are racist in general, too?

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This might get slightly off topic but I would have to say, no. Americans in general are not racist. But is racism still a major problem in the US? I'd say yes. If you disagree, you're probably white.

But one difference is that racism is REALLY frowned on in the US (at least in the blue states, I guess). You can't say the same for Japan.

Back to your original argument on generalization, I don't think it's fair to do that comparison for the sole fact that Japanese society (in my view) is more responsible (rather than the individual). So speaking out about the Japanese as whole isn't exactly inaccurate because it usually does stem their societal norms.

5 posts and I'm already sounding like a broken record!

No time to respond to everything, so just a barebone reply before I launch myself fully in.

kokusu said:

1) Japanese are individuals and not all are racist!

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I think this is a moot point. This erases the role of culture and institutions influencing individual attitudes. Of course not all are racist. But can we really assume that individuals exist independently of each other?

2) These problems of racism are not only found in Japan but in culture after culture and country after country around the world. Please, when you discuss the problem of racism, don't treat it as if it is a problem specific to one culture alone! It isn't a Japanese problem, or a Korean problem, or an American problem; it is a human problem.

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You know, and this is no offense to you, but I absolutely hate it when people say that since racism is not endemic to a certain area, then it doesn't deserve special attention in that area. My first problem with it is that people are not so naive that they think it doesn't exist elsewhere. I'm just as bothered by racism in my country as I am in Japan. Does that lessen any bit my annoyance with either country's racism taken alone? No. So how is this point relevant, taking that into consideration?

My second problem is that that's effectively equalizing all societies on the same basis without regard to demographic makeup, history, media influences, institutions, etc. You're correct in saying that it's a human problem, but what does that mean? Obviously that every society has it. How do we solve it? How do we even discuss it? Are we all responding to the same social environments?

kokusu said:

On the other hand (waves the olive branch of peace), I do understand and agree in part with what you are saying. I think, for example, one might say, "Gee, the Japanese eat a lot of rice!" This doesn't necessarily mean that every Japanese person eats a lot of rice, but just that Japanese a nation/culture eat a lot of rice in comparison with other cultures. This is a generalization that can be more readily explored, supported, or refuted. For example, you could measure the per capita rice consumption on an annual basis.

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So, if we have reliable statistics, generalisations are ok, but if we don't they are not ? What if we were to make a nation-wide survey and ask people about their opinions about many different subjects or behaviour in various situations. If we get a significant number of answers (several millions), would that be ok ? I'd really love to have such stats about hundreds of things, especially on how people from one given country see people in other countries. I wrote in earlier posts (e.g. this one) that many Japanese have misconceptions regarding foreigners, and especially Westerners. This is a generalisation made on my personal experience. My sample is barely a few hundreds people, but I took great care to ask them as many questions on the subject as necessary to grasp what was really in their mind (discern honne from tatemae). My sample was also quite representative, as I questioned people from all over Japan (working in Tokyo), about 50% males and 50% females, from different socio-economic backgrounds. There were just more people in their 20's and 30's than other segments. But generally, the older and the more prejudiced (in most countries, but very much so in Japan).

What do you mean "explain that much"? Dictionaries have definitions, many of them quite long. I'm not sure that I would agree that length of a dictionary explanation equals widespread cultural ignorance. I believe that to be a very tenuous connection.

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That was an English-Japanese dictionary, not a Japanese-Japanese dictionary. This means that for most words only the translation and examples are given, and only words which are untranslatable have this kind of explanations. In other words, most Japanese using such a dictionary would not understand properly the word "racism" from ﾂ人ﾅｽﾃｭﾂ債ｷ窶｢ﾃ? and have no concept of what it is.

"(and think that "negro" is the normal expression for "Black" !)" - And is "black" the normal expression for African or African-American?

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Of course it is. Only the more politically correct Americans use such strange terms as Afro-Americans (always make me think of an American with an afro hairstyle ;-) ). Anyway, outside the US the term "African-American" is meaningless, and African means someone who lives in Africa, was born there, or has the nationality of an African country. FYI, Black people call themselves "Black". We use the terms "Black music", "Black culture" and even "Black English". Even scholars and the media do in the UK or elsewhere. Many Black Americans find the supposedly politically correct term "African-American" worse than "Black" because it makes them feel like they are recent immigrants born in Africa, while most they have been there for over 200 years. Btw, do you find the term "White" discriminatory ?

Finally, I have had many conversations with many of my Japanese friends about racism, and they didn't need a dictionary to understand the term or the discussion.

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Are you sure ? They certainly understood that killing a Black was racism. But did they think that looking down or bad-mouthing the Chinese as a whole was racism ? From my experience (and other people in this forum), it is most common for Japanese people to understand racism only for level (5) mentioned above, and sometimes (4) and (3), but almost never (1) and (2). (1) is excusable, but (2) should be avoided (esp. if it is based on mostly untrue stereotypes) as it does hurt people's feelings and can create tensions between ethnic groups.

I work with some causasian Americans who don't think it is racist to call African-Americans niggers. Does this mean that Americans are racist in general, too?

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As you say, some of the Americans you know think so, but the majority doesn't. In Japan, based on several people's reports here, and my personal surveys of over 100 people, the vast majority does think it's ok to look down and badmouth Chinese or other people. 2 years ago, I went on holiday to France with my wife, and my step-father-in-law said the day before "ready to leave the civilised world ?" (meaning Japan). It was intended as a joke (I hope), but I felt that he half meant it anyway (although he has never been to Europe). I hear such semi-racist comments very frequently in Japan. Usually they are uttered among Japanese, and in a light-hearted joking way - but to see how normal it is, and how unashamed they are to say such things make one wonder what are their true feelings...

Here are two important points which I want to support :

Mikawa Ossan said:

I'm not trying to intimate whatsoever that I think the Japanese are more or less racist than anyone else when I say this. It's just that I think that as the vast majority of Japanese never come into contact with racism in their daily lives, they don't think about it very much.

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Bibinbahell said:

But one difference is that racism is REALLY frowned on in the US (at least in the blue states, I guess). You can't say the same for Japan.

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So, we could say that very few Japanese people have experienced racism (against them) since :

1) they live in a very homogenous country
2) those who have travelled abroad rarely experienced racism because Japanese tourists are typically welcomed as they spend a lot of money (not necessarily that they have more money, but use it more "liberally")
3) very few Japanese living in Japan have experience living abroad for more than a year (most of those who have are permanent emigrants)

No experience of racism makes it more difficult to understand "subtle racism" (in words, jokes or insinuations) or racial discrimination (e.g. for accommodation, being asked for one's alien registration card or no reason by the police, etc.).

Because of this absence of concern about racism in Japanese society as a whole, the authorities also lack awareness of racism, and therefore do not try to sensibilise or educate people not to behave in a racist way.

This is why racism is not frown upon in Japan the way it is in the USA or Europe. We cannot even say that Japanese people have never practised extreme forms of racism. They were equal to (or arguably worse than) the Nazi in their treatment of their fellow Asians during WWII. I believe that the biggest difference between Europe and Japan, is that the victors did not censure enough the racistic behaviour of Japan after 1945. China turned communist, and Japan became the US's protege, and all the bad actions were forgiven and forgotten. Japanese laws did not prohibit holocaust denial or racist speeches by politicians. The US did it at home because of internal pressures, but also to look good ("morally enlightened") in the eyes of Europeans - eventhough racism was always much stronger in the US, due to a longer history of ethnic mixing.

The US has had to take extreme measures such as "affirmative action" with quotas for schools, universities and public jobs for ethnic minorities, and the use of "politically correct" language (an almost uniquely American phenomenon).

European countries also have laws against racism, and racism is also frowned upon (esp. in Germany and Austria, I guess), but people tend to agree that racism is not racism if it is justified. For example, you can blame one particular ethnic group for the problems they cause (not imaginary ones), without sounding like a racist. If it is just stating facts, it's alright (yet racially based statistics are prohibited in many countries).

My impression is that in the US, things have gotten so far that you cannot even tell a customer to leave the shop because you are closing without being called racist if he is ethnically different from you.

In Japan, some companies even discriminate toward descendants of burakumin (the outcastes of the Edo era ), and some companies do research the genealogy of their potential recruits although it is officially forbidden. If they already discriminate between "pure Japanese" born and raised in Japan on such trifles, it is easy to understand why they would discriminate against Japanese born and raised abroad, Japan-born Koreans, and especially real foreigners born and raised abroad !

Of course, when you mention that, people who agree with such discrimination say that it is just a "cultural practice", which has existed for centuries, and is therefore justifiable. They will tell you that Japan does not have a long history of immigration and colonisation like Western countries. They typically forget that Japan was one of the 3 great colonial powers of the 20th century, along with France and Britain. They also forget that many European countries have never had colonies (all Eastern Europe, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, and reasonably also all Nordic countries*), or for a period even shorter than Japan (Germany, Italy...). But countries like Sweden, Denmark, Germany or Swizterland have welcomed a much higher percentage of immigrants, and do have laws against racial discrimination with less colonial history than Japan.

* except for Greenland and a few small islands or Arctic territory.