Oda Nobunaga and Saigo Takamori's crests

JapanLover

JapanLover

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Hi all,

I would like to know if someone of you have any good source of informations where to look for both of mens mentioned in the subject of this post.
I'm mainly intersted in finding pictures of the crests (mokkou in japanese, right?), due to the fact that on the websites I found I only saw very little pictures of those crests.
Thank you for your help :-)

JapanLover
 
Howdy,

The first one is the kamon granted by the Meiji emperor to the Saigo family and is the one he is most often pictured with.

The second one is the kamon most associated with Nobunaga.

The colors can be swapped (negative images) too.

Hope this is what you are after - :-)
 

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First of all, I want to thank you for your time answering.
I have some questions though, because I found other kamon on the Net (Oh, I also wonderign what is Mokkou then, since I also found this word relating with crests), for example the most common I found for Nobunaga is:
http://www.netpersons.co.jp/kamon/-exp/plant-exp/uri.html

So I also wonder if there are other kamon for Saigo Family and, in general which is the point when you find more than one kamon for a family (I mean: when and where and why each of them is used).

Sorry for having done so many questions.
Bye

JapanLover
 
Do you know the kanji used for "mokkou?" The only thing I could find related to family crests says mokkou is a type of quince or melon. I think mokkou is a type of kamon design, but is not a general term to mean family crest. It is easy to get all this mixed up.

A mokkou is often used as a design element in kamon and is also associated with Nobunaga. The problem with kamon is tha they are not very exclusive like a western coat of arms can be. Samurai who fought for a lord would often adopt and /or adapt the lord's kamon as their own, and families often had five or six. Of course it will depend on who you ask, but "the" kamon for a family will be the one appearing on formal outfits or ritual articles. Since people would associate several kamon with themselves, it is often hard to know which one is "the" kamon esp. when you look at famous people. For example, your link shows a 5 petal design, and my link says Nobunaga used a 4 petal design. Also, there are paintings of Nobunaga with the kamon like the first picture I posted. Probably used all three.

But these days, most people don't care and just use whatever comes on the rented kimono or the design supplied.

I don't know about the Mr. Saigou side of things. I'll have to poke around and see what is out there when I have time. :-)
 

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Guys you have beenvery kind.
The fact is I am just a beginner when it comes to Japanese history, but I think it is important to know not only the actual culture, but even the history and past costumes of a Country if you feel what I feel for Japan.
About today's costumes, how do Japanese feel about the two Lords I have mentioned in this post? I know Takamori is considered a sort of legend, but what about Nobunaga (I have some japanese friends and I will ask them for sure, but I like to hear from various sources ^__^)?

Again, thank you guys

JapanLover
 
All About Nobunaga's Family Crest (Kamon)

Please feel free to have a look at my website, where I detail Nobunaga's crest and other symbols. I think that my site will answer most of the questions that have been asked in this thread; but if there are any other questions please feel free to drop me a line directly, or post further here.

The main page is http://www.odanobunaga.com
The page on Nobunaga's kamon is http://www.odanobunaga.com/kamon.htm

This is my first post on this site - hope to post more in the future.

Oyakata
 
JapanLover said:
About today's costumes, how do Japanese feel about the two Lords I have mentioned in this post?
Click to expand...

This is a question I have also been interested in!

I know Saigo Takamori led the Satsuma Rebellion and I can imagine, for lovers of the Samurai like myself, he is quite the hero. (Although I'm sured a peaceful rebellion could have been perferred, but considerably less effective. 😆)

But I know only that Nobunaga was a brilliant, yet ruthless battle general. However, in his quest to unify Japan, he made appropriate preparations. I've read that he improved trade, the government, and peasant life. I've also read that when he captured cities of Christian religion, he allowed the church to govern the city while under his control.

I have asked this to a sort of penpal of mine who lives in Japan and got this response:

"Ieyasu and Nobunaga's characters are opposites. There is a haiku that expresses their characters. Nobunaga is expressed, "nakanunara korositeimae hototogisu." (Which means in English, "Kill if Hototogis doesn't bark.")
Ieyasu is expressed, "nakanunara nakumadematou hototogisu." (Which means in English, "Let's wait until barking Hototogis if it doesn't bark.)"

I don't really understand this, which is partially due to the confusing English and also because I don't know "Hototogis." Can anyone interpret for me?
 
Mizuiro said:
I have asked this to a sort of penpal of mine who lives in Japan and got this response:

"Ieyasu and Nobunaga's characters are opposites. There is a haiku that expresses their characters. Nobunaga is expressed, "nakanunara korositeimae hototogisu." (Which means in English, "Kill if Hototogis doesn't bark.")
Ieyasu is expressed, "nakanunara nakumadematou hototogisu." (Which means in English, "Let's wait until barking Hototogis if it doesn't bark.)"

I don't really understand this, which is partially due to the confusing English and also because I don't know "Hototogis." Can anyone interpret for me?
Click to expand...

Your friend has shared with you a portion of a very famous poem in Japanese. It actually goes like this:

Nakanu nara koroshite shimae hototogisu - Nobunaga
Nakazu tomo nakasete miseyou hototogisu - Hideyoshi
Nakanu nara naku made matte miyou hototogisu - Ieyasu

It means:
If the nightengale won't sing, kill it - (said) Nobunaga
If the nightengale won't sing, I'll make it sing - (said) Hideyoshi
If the nightengale won't sing, I'll wait till it sings - (said) Ieyasu

This is mean to describe the personalities of the three, and has come down to this day as a very clever little poem.

Hope this helps.
 
Ah, thank you so much Oyakata!

I have heard similar things like that, including this "aphorism" I found in a history book by Perez:

ﾂ"Nobunaga planted the rice; Hideyoshi harvested and cooked it; but Ieyasu ate it.ﾂ"

Which, I know, speaks about how each of them contributed to Japan's unition under the Tokugawa shogunate. It is interesting to see how these three are always considered together.
 
Mizuiro said:
ﾂ"Nobunaga planted the rice; Hideyoshi harvested and cooked it; but Ieyasu ate it.ﾂ"
...
It is interesting to see how these three are always considered together.
Click to expand...

Yes it's quite true that it's hard to mention one without the others; their personal relationships were quite close and in some ways interwoven. And of course there is the historical fact that they each took an important role in the 'unification' of Japan after the sengoku period .

I've noticed when I'm learning about Japanese history that it's very hard to pick a start and end point to focus on - the history is so long, and later events so much the result of earlier events, that I find myself always moving back and forth along the timeline, focusing on different eras and events. Looks like I'll probably be stuck reading about this stuff forever.....
 
Wow

Wow I tried to look up my family Crest and my Great Great Great Grandpa and I see this site.

This is awesome. I am related to Oda Nobunaga !
 
Hey everyone, I found my most recent Mon! It's just a tad bit off from Nobunagas. I guess it changes with every generation, and the families combine them in a way.

Catch you guys Later!
 
Figure skating: Oda wins Four Continents title
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado - Former world junior champion Nobunari Oda of Japan held onto his lead from the short program with a strong men's free skate to win his first title at the Four Continents figure skating championships Friday.
Oda, who will not be competing in the Turin Olympics next month, came second in the free skate for a total of 201.69 points, beating out runner-up Christopher Mabee of Canada by three points. Matt Savoie came third with 190.15.
Click to expand...

I don't know how close you are with Nobunari Oda, but congratulations upon your relative achievement!
 
Oda Nobunaga was actually a character in the Japanese video game, named Onimusha. Perhaps If you looked up information on Onimusha, you could get info on him. Alot of the storylien was based around him [for the first game].
 
Hes also in Samurai Warriors another videogame were you act out battles from his era
 
wow thanks you guys. Yeah I've played those video games. They always have to make him a demon of some sort. ahhh. oh well, he's still a bad ***.

thanks Hiroyuki Nagashima for those links. and to Yokan!

Later guys!
 
I just received two diff pic of my family Crest! They look completely diff from each other. The older one is very similar to Nobunagas and the most modern one is similar but has more defined grape leaves.
 
Could you share the pictures you have received? Or put up a link to them? I'd really enjoy having a look at them.
I'm also really fascinated at your possible connection to Oda Nobunaga . Do you know your family tree? It would be amazing to see how many generations removed you are from Nobunaga.
By the way my site was hacked earlier this year and I haven't really had a chance to put the home page back together. But the kamon page (http://www.odanobunaga.com/kamon.htm) is still up with no issues.
Thanks,
Oyakata.
www.OdaNobunaga.com
 
Mandylion said:
The second one is the kamon most associated with Nobunaga.
Click to expand...
That is actually not Oda Nobunaga 's family crest. That is the crest associated with Toyotomi Hideyoshi , the person who suceded Nobunaga.

Oda Nobunaga's crest is as below.
 

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Mikawa-san,
I have a page on my (very simple and unsophisticated) page which talks about Nobunaga's kamon. In fact, I linked to it a long time ago in this thread but it's probably gotten lost by now.
http://www.odanobunaga.com/kamon.htm
Please have a visit and let me know what you think.
Oyakata
 

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