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Oda Nobunaga's Unrealized Dream: Domination of Asia

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ!
17 Sep 2005
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Recently I read in a book about warlords in the warring states period of Japanese history something about Oda Nobunaga. I found it (among many other things) very interesting.

The gist of it was that Oda Nobunaga planned to, upon unification of Japan, invade and conquer pretty much all of Asia. What was really interesting to me was that the description of the territory he was planning to conquer very much resembled the Far East Economic Prosperity Zone from WWII.

Of course this means that when Hideyoshi invaded Korea, he was merely following in Nobunaga's footsteps, but more importantly, it is very likely that had he been sucessful in conquering Korea, that would have only been the first stepping stone in a much longer campaign (assuming of course that he was thinking in the same lines as Nobunaga before his untimely death).

Any thoughts? I just found it of immense interest!
 
I guess Tokugawa really was the odd-one-out out of the three of them then, eh? :D Well, the Satsuma clan did take Okinawa in 1609, so maybe he wanted to go the other way: down to Taiwan and SE Asia.
 
Naw, if Ieyasu had wanted to attack China, he would have mobilized the entire country, I'm sure. It seems like he was content with consolidating his gains and trying to preserve it for as long as possible.
 
I wouldn't doubt it. He was once called the fool of Owari. What better way to show every one that he was anything but a fool.
 
Well, it only makes sense that the man had enemies!

I think he was anything but a fool, however. As I like to say, we probably never become friends if we ever met, but he had all the qualities necessary to be a conqueror. He was clever, open to new ideas, very rational, and ruthless.

I read that with Azuchi castle, he was trying to elevate himself into a living god. This was because he noticed that the temples he quashed put up huge fights because of their religion. He wanted his soldiers to fight with the same ferocity, so he tried to make himself the object of their worship.
 
Mikawa Ossan said:
Recently I read in a book about warlords in the warring states period of Japanese history something about Oda Nobunaga. I found it (among many other things) very interesting.
The gist of it was that Oda Nobunaga planned to, upon unification of Japan, invade and conquer pretty much all of Asia. What was really interesting to me was that the description of the territory he was planning to conquer very much resembled the Far East Economic Prosperity Zone from WWII.
Hello Ossan!
I'm quite a fan of Nobunaga's and would be interesting in learning more about this. Can you tell us more about this book? In particular I'm interested in how the book's author(s) determined that Nobunaga was planning to invade Asia - what were their sources for this?
Thanks!
Oyakata
www.OdaNobunaga.com
 
I remember reading, maybe in Sansom's History of Japan, that Hideyoshi was intent on conquering China via Korea. At that point, he was getting a little senile and had no idea how large China was in comparison to Japan and the impossibility of his project.

Kind of an idiotic thing to do, hard to beleive that as recently as 70 years ago Japanese leaders were still trying to do the same thing!
 
I wouldn't say Nobunaga's plan of conquering China was too out of the line. Manchurians and Mongols were small tribes and they might even had less man power than Japan. However, they did managed to conquer China and ruled China for hundreds of year.
 
godppgo said:
I wouldn't say Nobunaga's plan of conquering China was too out of the line. Manchurians and Mongols were small tribes and they might even had less man power than Japan. However, they did managed to conquer China and ruled China for hundreds of year.
How sure are we that there was indeed such a plan held by Nobunaga to enter Asia? I'd be very interested to find out what is the background behind this notion.
Does anyone have any references to this?
Thanks,
Oyakata
www.OdaNobunaga.com
 
I've never heard of the Nobunaga's ambition, isn't it "chugoku district" in Japan? Actually Nobunaga ordered Hideyoshi to rule after conquering there.

One of the reasons that the Tokugawa Shougnate's sakoku foriegn policy was to prevent former Ming people from agitating the shogunate to save the collapsed Ming, guys like Zheng Chenggong.
It might be interesting what if the shogunate had been Hideyoshi's one then, Nurhaci and succesors vs. Hideyoshi. I bet Hideyoshi would have gladly accepted the Zheng's offer.
 
pipokun said:
I've never heard of the Nobunaga's ambition, isn't it "chugoku district" in Japan? Actually Nobunaga ordered Hideyoshi to rule after conquering there.

According to the letter of Luis Frois
"Nobunaga thought about an overseas expedition after having achieved world unification"

Although it does not understand truth

戦国時代
 
Hiroyuki Nagashima said:
According to the letter of Luis Frois
"Nobunaga thought about an overseas expedition after having achieved world unification"
Although it does not understand truth
戦国時代
窶卍キ窶懌?。窶堋ウ窶堙アツ、
窶堋ア窶堙ア窶堙俄?堋ソ窶堙債。窶ケMツ重窶堙個湘ョ窶「テアツ、窶堋?窶堙ィ窶堋ェ窶堙??堋、窶堋イ窶堋エ窶堋「窶堙懌?堋キツ。
窶堋ア窶堙姑稚ニ陳哉辰ニ湛窶堙固スティナス窶?窶堙?窶堋、ツ渉ュ窶堋オツ湘壺?堋オ窶堋ュ窶ケツウ窶堋ヲ窶堙??堋「窶堋ス窶堋セ窶堋ッ窶堙懌?堋キ窶堋ゥツ?窶ーツス窶扼窶堙個、窶堙??堙娯?堙ヲ窶堋、窶堙遺?掫ナ段窶堙娯?「ツィ窶堙??堋オ窶堙・窶堋、窶堋ゥツ?
窶卍キ窶懌?。窶堋ウ窶堙ア窶堙娯?堋ィツ考窶堋ヲ窶堙??堙債、窶堋サ窶堙固スティナス窶?窶堋ェ窶堙??堋、窶堙?ツ信窶卍キ窶堙娯?堋ア窶堙??堙ー窶板昶?ーテー窶堋オ窶堙??堋「窶堙遺?堋「窶堙ヲ窶堋、窶堙??堋キ窶堋ェツ、窶堙「窶堙坂?堙ィツ、ツ信窶卍キ窶堙家但ニ淡ニ但ツ進ツ出窶堙??堋「窶堋、ナ?ティ窶転窶堋ェ窶堙遺?堋ゥ窶堙≫?堋スツ、窶堙??堋「窶堋ア窶堙??堙??堋キ窶堙ヲ窶堙仰。
窶惑窶菟窶堙闇スツソ窶禿「窶堙?申窶堋オ窶禿ウ窶堋イ窶堋エ窶堋「窶堙懌?堋ケ窶堙アツ。窶堙??堋、窶堋ゥ窶堙ヲ窶堙ォ窶堋オ窶堋ュ窶堋ィナ?ティ窶堋「窶堋オ窶堙懌?堋キツ。
ツ「窶堋ィナ?テ卍」
Oyakata
www.OdaNobunaga.com
 
Oyakata said:
Hello Ossan!
I'm quite a fan of Nobunaga's and would be interesting in learning more about this. Can you tell us more about this book? In particular I'm interested in how the book's author(s) determined that Nobunaga was planning to invade Asia - what were their sources for this?
It was this book.
Amazon product ASIN 4408102164
 
I'll go one further and quote the book. BTW, it was only a short passage in the book leading up to another point (about Nobunaga trying to make himself into a god).
ツ信窶卍キ窶堙娯?禿ャ窶転窶堙債、窶堋サ窶堙ェ窶堙寂?堋ゥ窶堙ィ窶堙??堙坂?堙遺?堋ゥ窶堙≫?堋スツ。ニ湛ニ馳ニ辰ニ停?懌?堙「ニ竹ニ停?ケニ暖ニ狸ニ停?ケツ、ニ辰ニ樽ニ椎?ニ湛ツ、ニ棚ニ停?ーニ停?愴胆窶堙娯?愬槌但ニ淡ニ但ツ進ツ出窶堙俄?佚篠抗窶堋キ窶堙ゥ窶堋ス窶堙淞、窶卍ゥ窶朗窶敖シ窶懌?。窶堋ゥ窶堙ァ窶吮??ツ坂?倪?堙ーツ青ァ窶堋オツ、ニ遅ニ暖ニ段ニ停ぎ窶堋ゥ窶堙ァニ稚ニ達ニ椎?ニ痴ニ停?懌?堙懌?堙??堙?ナスx窶掏窶堋オ窶堋ス窶堋「窶堙??堋「窶堋、窶ー窶懌?佚・窶堙闇致窶ーテヲ窶堙ー窶ケツケ窶堙俄?敕ゥ窶堙溪?堙??堋「窶堋ス窶堙娯?堙??堋?窶堙ゥツ。
 
Thanks, Ossan!
That looks like a fun book. As you say those kind of books are usually not really specific on where they get their information from. It's too bad. Sometimes they contain information that you'd love to find out more about but don't know where to start looking.
in any event I'd be really interested to know how anyone could know that ナ致窶ーテヲ窶堙ー窶ケツケ窶堙俄?敕ゥ窶堙溪?堙??堋「窶堋ス窶堙娯?堙??堋?窶堙ゥ ツ。 :)
Thanks again for posting the link to the book as well.
Oyakata
 
That seems highly unlikely. Nobunaga barely controlled the center of Japan at the time of his death. He still had many huge clans to fight and lots of territory to conquer. If he had any designs on the mainland, they were probably just dreams, not serious plans. Hideyoshi was only able to invade the mainland because he decided to make peace with the rival clans instead of fighting. I don't think Nobunaga had any plans for peace.
 
Yoshida Shoin said:
That seems highly unlikely. Nobunaga barely controlled the center of Japan at the time of his death. He still had many huge clans to fight and lots of territory to conquer.... I don't think Nobunaga had any plans for peace.
I read (and I wish I could remember where) that Oda Nobunaga had the intention of unifying Japan, then deposing the Emperor and turning Japan into a Catholic and Western nation. He did support the Church and fought tooth-and-nail against Buddhism throughout his domain. Some Westerners think that he may have been a visionary, realizing that if the "Western barbarians" could reach Japan, then Japan could someday reach them if he could just modernize them. As for the Japanese... well, if all this is true, then no wonder he is always shown as a demonic evildoer in all of those anime.

EDIT: As a side note, whenever playing Europa Universalis II, I always do my damndest to modernize Japan and catch up with the Europeans by 1600, doing everything that the actual Japanese didn't do. I've kicked the Dutch out of the Indies, colonized California before the Spanish, vassalized China, and even landed troops in France to help the monarchists against Napoleon. How's that for alternate history?!
 
If what I have read about Oda wanting to make himself into an object of worship is correct, I find it difficult to believe that he had the intention of making Japan Catholic after he united it. I find it more likely that he was using the Catholic church as a source of valuable information more than anything else.
 
Some of you here might take it as a grain of salt.

There is this loosely common belief in both Korea and China political circles,Japan have had desire on China or Asia continental for some times with Korea peninsula serves as a " springboard ".
 
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ricecake said:
There is this loosely common belief in both Korea and China political circles,Japan have had desire on China or Asia continental for some times with Korea peninsula serves as a " springboard ".
I don't think so. Until the Meiji Restoration (with the exception of a few assaults on the southern Korean coast during the Sengoku period), the Japanese have been very insular and uninterested in political affairs abroad. Even during more peaceful Shogunates, they've always seemed to turn inward in search of some sort of sublime inner perfection as a society. Of course, this perfection only really benefitted the samurai class.
 
Hmmmm.... Have you heard of Injim War between Korea and Hideoyoshi's Japan lasted 7 years until his death finally ended the devastation of war torn Korea peninsula inadvertently crippled Ming financially ?

The undefeatable Yi Shun Sin was the Korean commander of the infamous Turtle Ships in this war.
 
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Make Japan Catholic? Are you serious. Manga are not history books. Nobunaga was interested in foreign places and people, therefore interested in Catholocism. He saw it as a potential tool to counter the power of Buddhism. But he never did anything with it. He wasn't even Catholic. The missionaries tried to convert him but he wasn't having it.
 
Yoshida Shoin said:
Make Japan Catholic? Are you serious. Manga are not history books.
They obviously are not, Herodotus. I said that some Western historians postulate that perhaps he intended to convert at some point because 1) he supported it so heavily and 2) it would have politically tied him to several Western powers. I mentioned his depiction as a demon in anime because it is tied to historical theories. Popular Japanese culture got the idea from somewhere.
Are you serious.
This should end with a question mark (?).
ricecake said:
Have you heard of Injim War between Korea and Hideoyoshi's Japan lasted 7 years until his death finally ended the devastation of war torn Korea peninsula inadvertently crippled Ming financially ?
I've heard of the war. I didn't realize it was so devastating to Korea itself. I was always under the impression that it was a rather half-hearted attempt in the first place.
The undefeatable Yi Shun Sin was the Korean commander of the infamous Turtle Ships in this war.
I've heard he is the "George Washington" of the Korean people, and he blockaded the Japanese strongpoints on the southern end of the peninsula, then surrounded their army in an effort to starve them out.
 
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