Questions I have in regards to 日本語.

[astarisborn94]

I'm sure I'm going to have a lot of questions, so might as well get these out now.

1. I'd like to get clarification in regards to naming. I notice that in English, ji is frequently used for romanizing 日本語 (Keiji and Kojima being examples), yet since it is only used for the sound of ぢ and じ and doesn't have its own ひらがな. I'm guessing that ji is only used in English because that's how ぢ and じ sound like, right?

As for saying Japan, I notice how nihon, nihongo and nippon are used, yet I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be using. I know that 日本語 is used for Japanese and 日本 is used for Japanese. I'm assuming nihongo is used to say 日本語, but I'm not sure if either nihon or nippon is the proper way to say 日本.

2. I am not sure how I am supposed to type the small つ. I know that with V-vowels ひらがな like しゃ and others that you get the small ひらがな by typing the English character to reflect what they say in 日本語, but I am not sure what to do for the small つ.

Thanks.

 

[Morphling]

I'm sure I'm going to have a lot of questions, so might as well get these out now.

1. I'd like to get clarification in regards to naming. I notice that in English, ji is frequently used for romanizing 日本語 (Keiji and Kojima being examples), yet since it is only used for the sound of ぢ and じ and doesn't have its own ひらがな. I'm guessing that ji is only used in English because that's how ぢ and じ sound like, right?

As for saying Japan, I notice how nihon, nihongo and nippon are used, yet I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be using. I know that 日本語 is used for Japanese and 日本 is used for Japanese. I'm assuming nihongo is used to say 日本語, but I'm not sure if either nihon or nippon is the proper way to say 日本.

2. I am not sure how I am supposed to type the small つ. I know that with V-vowels ひらがな like しゃ and others that you get the small ひらがな by typing the English character to reflect what they say in 日本語, but I am not sure what to do for the small つ.

Thanks.

Yeah じ sounds like ji so that's how they romanize it. Again romaji isn't taken seriously in Japan. Some of the older generation can't even read it. I would spend much time on it as there is no actual agreed way of romanizing Japanese anyway. There are many standards.

ぢ is used much less often. It's typical of 歴史的仮名遣ひ or old kana used in Classic Japanese.

にほん would be the most flexible way of saying it but にっぽん can be used by itself. I have never heard にっぽん used as part of a word such as 日本語. It certainly isn't standard. I would just stick to にほん. It's the safest.

Easiest way to type small っ is to type x in front of tsu. So type xtsu. You can also type a consonant twice to get it. Like Nippon.

 

[Toritoribe]

In modern kana usage, ぢ is used only for rendaku in compound words(e.g. 鼻血[はなぢ], 身近[みぢか]) and a verb 縮[ちぢ]む. This rule is applied also to ず vs づ, as in 三日月[みかづき], 近付[ちかづ]く and 続[つづ]く.

 

[eeky]

Yeah じ sounds like ji so that's how they romanize it. Again romaji isn't taken seriously in Japan. Some of the older generation can't even read it.

That reminds me of something I meant to ask ...

Obviously because I have a Western keyboard, I type Japanese using romaji. In Japan, on computers, mobile devices, etc., do natives always type Japanese using input systems with keys designated for kana, or do many use systems that require romaji typing?

 

[Morphling]

That reminds me of something I meant to ask ...

Obviously because I have a Western keyboard, I type Japanese using romaji. In Japan, on computers, mobile devices, etc., do natives always type Japanese using input systems with keys designated for kana, or do many use systems that require romaji typing?

Kana is much more popular on phones and what not but romaji seems more popular on keyboard. These days with iPhones, I still imagine kana would be faster? Not too sure.

 

[astarisborn94]

Yeah じ sounds like ji so that's how they romanize it. Again romaji isn't taken seriously in Japan. Some of the older generation can't even read it. I would spend much time on it as there is no actual agreed way of romanizing Japanese anyway. There are many standards.

ぢ is used much less often. It's typical of 歴史的仮名遣ひ or old kana used in Classic Japanese.

にほん would be the most flexible way of saying it but にっぽん can be used by itself. I have never heard にっぽん used as part of a word such as 日本語. It certainly isn't standard. I would just stick to にほん. It's the safest.

Easiest way to type small っ is to type x in front of tsu. So type xtsu. You can also type a consonant twice to get it. Like Nippon.

Yeah, I hate romaji as well, which is part of the reason why I was so confused on that part. I see it as a crutch for actually learning 日本語 and I intend to get out of using romaji as soon as possible. The only reason why I use any romaji for ひらがな and カタカナ is so that I can understand how to make the sound. Once I master both and the sound, I intend to leave romaji for good.

I'm glad to hear that にほん is standard instead of にっぽん. Sounds more natural anyway and clears things up.

When I type xtsu, it gives me various options, but no option for the っ. When I do type in xtu, っ pops up. Advice is a bit flawed, but it helped me get there, so thanks nonetheless.

Speaking of which, I wonder how someone would convert the ひらがな to voiced ひらがな and y-vowels ひらがな in kana form in an iPhone?

 

[Majestic]

Regarding Nippon versus Nihon, Nippon is the spelling and usage you will find in most official texts (including on the reverse side of the banknotes, and in microprinting on the 500 yen coin, among other things). When combined with other words it is usually rendered as nihon (i.e. nihongo, nihonjin).

However, perhaps because of its association with officialdom, some people find "Nippon" sounds a bit strong (too patriotic?) for their liking, and therefore in normal speech people will typically refer to the country as "Nihon". But in national sporting events or the Olympics, you'll see crowds cheering for the Japanese team by chanting "NIPPON!!".

Regarding the standards for transliterating kana into English, there actually is a Mombukagakusho standard called the Kunrei-shiki, and this is the rubric that Japanese elementary school students are taught. The problem with Kunrei-shiki is that while it is an economical system of rendering kana into romaji, it is confusing for western speakers and invites mispronunciation when used by westerners as a guide for pronouncing Japanese. Tsunami is rendered as tunami, and sushi would be rendered as susi, for example. So there is an alternative group of spellings allowed under the Kunrei-shiki to address these phonetic problems. Check out the Wikipedia entry for Kunrei-shiki for a more detailed discussion of this. (The alternative standard would be the Hepburn System, which more closely approximates actual pronunciation of Japanese language. Again, check out wikipedia for some interesting background info on this).

 

[Toritoribe]

にっぽん doesn't have any "patriotic" nuance. Japanese Government decided an answer "The readings にっぽん and にほん are both widely spread, so there's no need to unify the readings into either of them" in a Cabinet meeting in 2009.
衆議院議員岩國哲人君提出日本国号に関する質問に対する答弁書
(all in Japanese)

Here's a list of how the kanji 日本 is officially pronounced. For instance, 日本放送協会(NHK) is officially にっぽんほうそうきょうかい, but にほんほうそうきょうかい is also used.
日本（にほん・にっぽん）の読み方辞典（音訳の部屋）
(all in Japanese)

That reminds me of something I meant to ask ...

Obviously because I have a Western keyboard, I type Japanese using romaji. In Japan, on computers, mobile devices, etc., do natives always type Japanese using input systems with keys designated for kana, or do many use systems that require romaji typing?

Romaji input is most common on keyboard. According to the results of a survey in January 2007 by Rakuten Resurch, 84.3% of those surveyed used romaji imput method.
Most people use トグル入力, i.e., multi-tap input on mobile phones. For instance, か --> き --> く --> け --> こ --> か,,, are displayed by pressing the "2" key repeatedly, similarly, や --> ゆ --> よ --> ゃ --> ゅ --> ょ --> や,,, by the "8" key.
フリック入力 would be most commonly used on smart phones. See the following image.

 

[Majestic]

にっぽん doesn't have any "patriotic" nuance.

I think most people would agree that there is a definite strength present in the word Nippon as opposed to Nihon, and so I'm a bit surprised you would deny this. For an interesting discussion on this one might read the following.

http://repository.seikei.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/10928/83/1/bungaku-46_109-124.pdf

Journalist Takafumi Kutsuwada has this to say;

「にっぽん」と言うと意識的に力が入る。日常会話で使 うと、眦（まなじり）決してって感じで力が入った印象 になってしまう。「俺たちは大国だ！」「アジアでも大 きいんだ！」といような威張った感じでしょ。それは避 けたいな。
だから私はあえてソフトな言い方を選択し穏やかに相手 に語り掛けたいので「にほん」を使っています。（柔）

日本語研究室

I think I'll stick with my original statement; that some people find the word "Nippon" too strong for their liking - as clearly Kutsuwada-san does.

 

[Toritoribe]

轡田隆史 was born in 1936, so he himself would have a memory of 大日本帝国, as he said in the quote, and it somehow affects him (jimo). I don't feel that にっぽん has such a nuance.

「にっぽん」と言うと意識的に力が入る。日常会話で使うと、眦（まなじり）決してって感じで力が入った印象になってしまう。「俺たちは大国だ！」「アジアでも大きいんだ！」といような威張った感じでしょ。

I don't agree with this statement. This is his opinion, and I believe it's not a general one.

 

[LewiiG]

Speaking of which, I wonder how someone would convert the ひらがな to voiced ひらがな and y-vowels ひらがな in kana form in an iPhone?

They'd use a key on the bottom left that basically looks like this:
゛小゜
and adds the ゛ or the ゜ to select kana or makes select kana small (小) to achieve "y-vowels" like ちゃ for instance.

 

[Majestic]

轡田隆史 was born in 1936, so he himself would have a memory of 大日本帝国, as he said in the quote, and it somehow affects him (jimo). I don't feel that にっぽん has such a nuance.
I don't agree with this statement. This is his opinion, and I believe it's not a general one.

I think its probably more general than you think, but this ultimately comes down to feeling and opinion. I give here two other examples. I think the original poster would do well to bear in mind that some people feel "Nippon" has a nationalistic nuance for some people. I give two other examples.

また、「にっぽん」という発音には、ナショナリズムの 響きが若干あり、スポーツの国際試合などでよく使われること、軍国主義時代の 日本は「だいにっぽんていこく」であり、当時は公式に は「にっぽん」と発音し「にっぽん」に統一しようとい う動きもあったことなどを、留学生の出身国やレベルに よっては添えるのもいいかもしれません
言葉の質問です。日本という言葉にも読み方が二通りあります。ニホン・... - Yahoo!知恵袋
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1032637120
個人的な感覚としては、「にっぽん」は元気が出る、威 勢がいい、といった感じがある。それに比べて「にほん 」の方はやさしい感じがする。スポーツの応援などはどうしても「ニッポン、チャチャチャ」 の方が力が入る。「ニホン」では歯切れが悪く応援しづ らい。

「にっぽんじん」と発音すると、どこかしら堅苦しい、 姿勢を正す、ような感じがあるが、「にほんじん」と発 音すると、普通の、力の抜けた感じがする。
「日本」は「にっぽん」か「にほん」か？ - 東京ぽこぺん日記

 

[Toritoribe]

個人的な感覚としては、「にっぽん」は元気が出る、威勢がいい、といった感じがある。それに比べて「にほん」の方はやさしい感じがする。

I agree with this. This effect is from the difference between the sound of the voiceless glottal transition [h] and the voiceless bilabial stop

, as same as やはり vs やっぱり. But I don't get official or patriotic nuance from にっぽん, as I wrote previously. I think that that impression should be considered more likely "generational", not "general". I, too, give an example.

＜にほん＞と読むべきか＜にっぽん＞と読むべきか。…どう思う？ボクは＜にほん＞とする方がいいと思っているけどね。なぜといって、＜にっぽん＞と読むと、軍や軍人たちが何かというと＜だいにっぽんていこく＞なんて声高に叫んで国民を戦争に駆り立てていった戦前、戦中をどうしても思い出してしまうからね。語感がやわらかい＜にほん＞がボクはいいな
----------
先生自身が"だいにっぽんていこく万歳"などと叫んで、自分の教え子たちを積極的に戦場に送り込んだ"軍国教師"だったのに違いない。だから、そのことを反省して、いま、あえて、"にほん"の方が好ましいと言っているのだ

第１２４回 ＜にほん＞の語感を愛する心 - 苦言熟考 Web Station Stay Active

Again, I don't think ニッポン、チャチャチャ is patriotic. It's used just because appropriate for cheer.

 

[Majestic]

I invite the OP to reread my original sentence

"However, perhaps because of its association with officialdom, some people find "Nippon" sounds a bit strong (too patriotic?) for their liking, and therefore in normal speech people will typically refer to the country as "Nihon".

This sentiment is supported by the evidence at hand, and I ask the OP to decide for him or herself whether the word Nippon carries any patriotic baggage with it. Given that Nippon was the forced usage before and during the war, and given the numerous opinions posted here that it sounds too strong, harsh, strict, or nationalistic, and given its use in cheering on national teams during sporting events, I remain astonished that anyone would flatly deny there is a patriotic nuance in the word.

 

[astarisborn94]

Late reply, but anyway:
LewiiG: Thanks. That really helps out. Will make sure to use the kana much more for typing 日本語.

As for the debate between the usage of 日本 and にっぽん, I am still going to use 日本. Right now, I am not at the point where I have patriotic feelings towards the country and as such, will prefer to use 日本 in the meantime. However, I do acknowledge that both 日本 and にっぽん are used in Japan as such, will keep an eye out for both.

 

[LewiiG]

As for the debate between the usage of 日本 and にっぽん, I am still going to use 日本. Right now, I am not at the point where I have patriotic feelings towards the country and as such, will prefer to use 日本 in the meantime. However, I do acknowledge that both 日本 and にっぽん are used in Japan as such, will keep an eye out for both.

日本 can also be pronounced にっぽん by the way.

As for any differences, I have asked several natives before who have all responded with stuff like "there is no difference at all." Maybe that's because they don't want to confuse my nooby self with any detailed nuances, but yeah. にっぽん seems to be used in specific phrases or places where the strong "p" sound gives its effect whereas にほん seems more general use. Though It's not like there are any rules for usage. Just trends and preferences I suppose. Basically it's like they are the same in that you can use any one wherever you want and it would not matter. Perhaps this is what they mean by "no difference."

Maybe.

Saying that I just watched an anime where they used にっぽん alot maybe all the time so maybe there is no difference. Although that anime was based around a theoretical 第三次世界大戦 so I wonder if there is any connection to that type of thing. It doesn't seem like a stressed point though.

 

[astarisborn94]

A few questions:

1. I noticed that あ, い, and う are used for extending the vowel sounds (such as せんせい being extended by the い). I'm not sure if it would extend to を as well (especially since the "w" part of the sound is absent). Let's say I am using 日本語を, would it be "nihongoo" or "nihongo wo" (meaning if i should extend the "o" sound or separate the "o" sound).

2. Is there a guide to sort of how to type in 日本語? I am trying out to figure out how to type the ・ in ブラック・ジャック and I'm not sure how to type it.

3. While practicing my ひらがな, I have been using しょ to mean "sya" (at least according to sound). Yet when I looking at Tofugu's website for the Top three 日本語 memes of 2013, one of the meme said "いつやるか？ 今でしょ！" (Itsu yaru ka? Ima desho!). I didn't come across sho while learning ひらがな, so it threw me off here.

 

[Morphling]

1. Yes it will extend the o in go. Wo is always read as o.

2. You will type burakku/jakku. May have to hit space a few times after / to select the right dot.

3. しょ is syo in jp input. Can also be sho. Sya is しゃ. Or you could just type sha which is much less confusing.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

例1】 ⇒「これ・は・例・です★」（笑）
rei1) yajirushi[kore/ha/rei/desuhosi]wara

I always type sya/syu/syo because it's consistent with hya/kya/etc.
I think of my kana entry generally as row+vowel not as some pronunciation, and don't really care what the romaji would look like if I wasn't in an IME.
I think the j's are an exception because my fingers are reluctant to reach for 'z', maybe because it's an awkward key and maybe because it makes for more keystrokes. (ja ji jo vs. zya zi zyo) As long as you are used to it, it doesn't really matter which keystrokes you use to generate the kana.

 

[astarisborn94]

1. Within a day, I should be hitting the additional sounds for the カタカナ not present in voiced カタカナ or y-vowels カタカナ with letters such as ヴャ、ヂュ、ウェ, etc. Do these characters sound like what they would in English or does 日本語 require unique pronunciation for these words like they do ra, ri, ru, re and ro (referring to the JREF's Katakana guide).

2. What are some things I need to learn with 漢字? From what I understand, I need to understand these things:
A. The 音読み and 訓読み readings.
B. The meanings of the 漢字 and what meaning to use.
C. The English and 日本語 meanings.
D. The radicals/stroke order of the 漢字。

What else do I need to understand? I want to make sure that I am able to write the 漢字, can recognize the 漢字, can speak it, recognize it when it is spoken and understand the 漢字。

ありがとう。

 

[Morphling]

Questions I have in regards to 日本語.

The very existence of those katakana sounds are debated as there really is no V sound in Japanese. But in reality they do exist but exclusively in the realm of foreign words.

They are not considered as proper Japanese so I wouldn't put too much effort into those.

Best to understand Kanji in context. I would not try to learn them independent of some kind of story book with furigana and context. Although remembering roughly the meaning of each character help. Remember they are means to and end and not end itself.

Remember the rough rule of thumb. Compound characters with no kana tail are usually Onyomi and single character or compounds with tails are usually kun.

音読み:
微笑 ビショウ 躊躇 チュウチョ
訓読み:
微笑む ほほえむ 躊躇う ためらう
笑う わらう 国 くに 水 みず

 

[nekojita]

It is important to remember that not everything is read with on/kun. In fact there are a lot of non-standard readings in some of the most common words (今日、今朝 etc).

"meanings" are only relevant in the context of words. In some cases kanji can be used in words with quite disparate meanings. What is the "meaning" of 着? Well, that depends whether you're talking about 着物 or 到着. How well you 'know' a kanji is really quite closely connected to how large your vocabulary is. (Granted, there are cases like 駅 where the kanji stands as a word by itself and has pretty much a single concrete meaning and single reading. Just don't assume they're all like that).

Knowing the radicals/components can be helpful in searching for kanji (multiradical search methods), in describing unfamiliar kanji (液= さんずいによる), and as meaning/on-yomi hints. I wouldn't make memorising them/their names a priority but go ahead and pick a few of the common ones up. My favourite radical name is にくづき - the radical that looks like 月 but was originally 肉 and appears in many body part kanji (臓、肺、胸 etc).

For reading, it's often possible to make decent guesses about word meanings from the kanji/context and not learn the proper reading. A good practice is to try reading text out loud. I recommend this practice for whenever you start to feel overconfident about your abilities (works for me every time). If you struggle with the readings you need to test/drill more 漢字→かな (that is, from a word to its reading, not one kanji to all the possible readings).

I would not prioritise handwriting (depends on your situation, of course), but when/if you handwrite you must pay attention to stroke order. These days being able to efficiently use an IME is also important - including knowing when to not trust the default 変換.

 

[astarisborn94]

I know it's really late to respond to this but...

I would not prioritise handwriting (depends on your situation, of course), but when/if you handwrite you must pay attention to stroke order. These days being able to efficiently use an IME is also important - including knowing when to not trust the default 変換.

I feel as I don't begin to understand some part of a 漢字 until I have written it out. I try to handwrite every 漢字 I come across because of this reason and I also feel it helps with establishing long-term memory. Without handwriting it, I don't think I can remember what a 漢字 is. It's like practicing math problems, you don't get good at them until you study them to where you understand it.

I also have been trying to use jisho.org in order to get the English meanings of all the words I've found so far in 漢字 as well as the stroke order (although I'm trying not to think about 漢字 by stroke order, but rather radicals and parts), radicals and parts, 訓読み, 音読み and 日本語 names. The reason why I've been doing this is so that I can make a personal "dictionary" of sort as a way to collect 漢字 I have learned. It bothers me because it seems as writing all of the information in regards to jisho.org for a 漢字 takes longer than I anticipated. Is there really anything that I need to change about acquiring 漢字 in the meanwhile?

 

[astarisborn94]

こんにちは！はじめまして。

I'm not sure whenever or not I should use 振り仮名 to help me with identifying 漢字。 I know that 振り仮名 is used in 日本 to help young children out with learning 日本語 (as many 漢字 (at least the ones I've encountered) have multiple different 音読み, 訓読み and 名乗り associated with the 漢字 and there's no rule indicating which one is used, only general guidelines with many exceptions (that being that those with multiple 漢字 are the 音読み and those with only one 漢字 or a ひらがな tail at the end are 訓読み), but I do worry that it could develop into a bad habit if I rely on 振り仮名 too much. Neverthelss, since I'm new to learning 漢字, should I use 振り仮名 for now or do the same with ローマ字 and avoid it as much as possible? If so, when should I reach the point where I won't need 振り仮名 anymore (I currently know (but not mastered) over 五十漢字 (not sure if that's correct grammatically speaking))?

ありがとうございます！

 

[nekojita]

It's not a on/off thing. Even books and newspapers aimed at educated native speakers will have furigana over difficult words or non-standard readings. Note: this is not necessarily the same as difficult/rare kanji - you can have relatively common kanji in a word that happens to have a obscure reading, which is not related to on/kun readings. e.g. 台詞 (せりふ).

If a word is new to you, it's not a bad idea to have furigana on it to help jog your memory, or to use reading material with a lot of furigana on so it takes less time for you to look things up. But you should be trying to learn the reading of the word so eventually you don't need the furigana any more.