Keigo!

[Skullcrushergurl]

Ohisashiburi minna! I especially miss Marsman-san and Goldiegirl-san!

Anyway so I've decided to learn keigo now! I at least want to learn the basics. But the problem is that there are different types of keigo for different dialects!
I'm going to study the most basic in which the verbs are:

desu-gozaimasu
taberu-meshiagemasu
suru-itasu
iu-mosu
hanasu-ossharu
iku-irassh

I've also heard of using passive forms in keigo.
taberu-taberarermasu
hanasu-hanasaremasu

Would anyone care to share what you know about keigo and where I should start with my studies?
Arigato gozaimasu!:sorry:

 

[Grandpa Frank]

You forgot me, I'm crushed!!

Missed you gal! Glad to see ya back!

Uncle Frank

 

[Mike Cash]

Are there enough animated gifs in this thread yet?

 

[nice gaijin]

Hmm, keigo is a pretty tough thing to study on your own, mainly because the proper use of it requires you to have a good grasp of what is appropriate for the given situation. There are actually five different kinds of keigo now, depending on their use, who is talking and what they're talking about. Your examples have already mixed up kenjougo and sonkeigo...

How good is your grasp of standard verb conjugations? Just using desu/masu forms is already keigo. Without understanding the purpose for the different kinds, it makes it easy to mix them up. If you want to learn, I would recommend looking at the definitions for each kind and their appropriate use, then you can delve into the actual vocabulary.

 

[Toritoribe]

Wiki has the explanation.
Honorific speech in Japanese - Wikipedia

I agree with nice gaijin-san. Keigo is quite tough even for native speakers.
Ah, as you can see in the wiki page above, sonkeigo of taberu is meshiagaru. Meshiagemasu is the masu-form of the verb meshiageru or "to confiscate.";-)

 

[FrustratedDave]

Wiki has the explanation.
Honorific speech in Japanese - Wikipedia
I agree with nice gaijin-san. Keigo is quite tough even for native speakers.
Ah, as you can see in the wiki page above, sonkeigo of taberu is meshiagaru. Meshiagemasu is the masu-form of the verb meshiageru or "to confiscate.";-)

It is about as difficult as explaining why this word below can't be used.

arigatou gozaimasen...

 

[Glenn]

Just using desu/masu forms is already keigo.

This just reminded me of something one of my teachers once said. It was pretty much along the lines of rather than spending all sorts of time with keigo, learn to use the giving-receiving verbs correctly, because if you do that you will express your gratitude to the listener or about the person you're talking about. Of course, learning keigo is a must at some point, just because there are situations where it can't be avoided, but I can't say it's all that bad advice.

It is about as difficult as explaining why this word below can't be used.

arigatou gozaimasen...

Come to think of it, how would you negate adjectives in that dialect (not sure if it's just one, or which one it is)? ありがたくのう。 Haha, I doubt it. Does this make sense: あの子、高こう跳んだのう? How would you negate the adverb? I've only got weird guesses.

 

[Toritoribe]

Come to think of it, how would you negate adjectives in that dialect (not sure if it's just one, or which one it is)? ありがたくのう。 Haha, I doubt it. Does this make sense: あの子、高こう跳んだのう? How would you negate the adverb? I've only got weird guesses.

Right. ありがたくのう would be correct. Some may say ありがとうのう, though.

ありがたく → ありがとう(ウ音便: u-euphonic change)
ありがたくなく → ありがたくのう

It sounds like a samurai dialect. 殿、お言葉ながら、有り難くのうござりまする or something like that.


高くなく would change into 高[たこ]うのう(高[た]こうのう)/高[たか]くのう.
e.g.
あの塀は、さほど高うのう/高くのうございましょう。 = あの塀は、あまり高く(は)ないでしょう。

However, it would be more natural to negate ございます in both cases.

殿、お言葉ながら、有り難くござりませぬ。
あの塀は、さほど高うございません。


のう in 跳んだのう is the sentence final particle which expresses the speaker's admiration, thus, old men's version of なあ/ねえ. In conclusion, 高う跳んだのう means 高く跳んだなあ/ねえ.

 

[Glenn]

Wow, I can't believe I got such a detailed response, and I really can't believe I was right! Haha. Well, I guess I could have gotten the 送り仮名 right on 高う, but oh well. Thanks for the detailed explanation! That was great!

A: わし、やってしもうたみたいだのう。
B: そうじゃわい！カカカカッ

 

[Toritoribe]

There's no standard 送り仮名 for たこう.

result of Google search
高こうない 360
高うない 237

Probably both would be acceptable.

 

[Skullcrushergurl]

So is it okay to ask: Ogenki de gozaimasu ka?
(Also: I am at a computer that can't read characters so I'd appreciate if we could stick to romaji!)

 

[Glenn]

Sounds strange to me, but it might be appropriate if you were talking to someone really high-up, like the emperor, prime minister, president of your company, etc., although it may be better to say ogenki de irasshaimasuka? Other than that I would say that just ogenki desu ka? is fine when you need to be polite.

I now await a Japanese opinion to see how close I came.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Sounds strange to me, but it might be appropriate if you were talking to someone really high-up, like the emperor, prime minister, president of your company, etc., although it may be better to say ogenki de irasshaimasuka? Other than that I would say that just ogenki desu ka? is fine when you need to be polite.

I now await a Japanese opinion to see how close I came.

#1 , I don't think you would be asking the Prime minister or Emperor is they were genki. LOL.... #2 , That was a joke as I could not resist!
#3, both "ogenki de irasshaimasuka" and "Ogenki de gozaimasu ka" can be used in every day conversation. Hope that helps.

 

[grapefruit]

I would use お元気でいらっしゃいますか.

 

[Glenn]

#1 , I don't think you would be asking the Prime minister or Emperor is they were genki. LOL.... #2 , That was a joke as I could not resist!

Well, maybe the prime minister. They seem to be going through those like investment banks are failing. At any rate, I had the same thought. It just doesn't seem like something you'd ask someone you didn't have a relationship with.

 

[Toritoribe]

So is it okay to ask: Ogenki de gozaimasu ka?
(Also: I am at a computer that can't read characters so I'd appreciate if we could stick to romaji!)

I agree with Glenn-san and grapefruit-san. "Ogenki deshita ka?/Ogenki de irasshaimashita ka?" also can be used.
"Gozaimasu" is teineigo(the polite form) of the verb "aru," which can basically be used only for the thing regarding the speaker(the speaker's side.) So, you can say "okagesama de (watashi wa) genki/sokusai(息災) de gozaimasu," whereas it's hardly said that "(anata wa) genki de gozaimasu ka?"

EDIT:
In the case to say the speaker is "genki," it would be more natural to use "orimasu" (the polite form of the verb "iru") instead of "gozaimasu."
(Watashi wa) genki desu, genki de imasu, genki ni shiteimasu, genki de orimasu, genki ni shiteorimasu

 

[FrustratedDave]

I agree with Glenn-san and grapefruit-san. "Ogenki deshita ka?/Ogenki de irasshaimashita ka?" also can be used.
"Gozaimasu" is teineigo(the polite form) of the verb "aru," which can basically be used only for the thing regarding the speaker(the speaker's side.) So, you can say "okagesama de (watashi wa) genki/sokusai(息災) de gozaimasu," whereas it's hardly said that "(anata wa) genki de gozaimasu ka?"
EDIT:
In the case to say the speaker is "genki," it would be more natural to use "orimasu" (the polite form of the verb "iru") instead of "gozaimasu."
(Watashi wa) genki desu, genki de imasu, genki ni shiteimasu, genki de orimasu, genki ni shiteorimasu

I don't know if it is a Kansai thing, but "genki de gozaimasuka?" is used quite frequently here. Whether it is grammatically correct or not is besides the point IMO, b/c as we all know language is always changing. Take the younger generation today, they use words and phrases that make no grammatical sense but it becomes the norm in some cases.

 

[grapefruit]

I don't know if it is a Kansai thing, but "genki de gozaimasuka?" is used quite frequently here. Whether it is gramaticaly correct or not is besides the point IMO , b/c as we all know language is always changing. Take the younger generation today ,they use words and phrases that make no gramatical sense but it becomes the norm in some cases.

I agree. Especially, keigo is something native speakers acquire later in life. It must be the element of Japanese grammar most variable from person to person.

 

[Toritoribe]

I don't know if it is a Kansai thing, but "genki de gozaimasuka?" is used quite frequently here. Whether it is gramaticaly correct or not is besides the point IMO , b/c as we all know language is always changing. Take the younger generation today ,they use words and phrases that make no gramatical sense but it becomes the norm in some cases.

Whmmm, off the top my head, the phrase 何気に(nanige ni,) for instace. The misused word may become the correct one someday, e.g. 新しい(atarashii) which is from the archaic adjective 新[あらた]し(aratashi.) But "ogenki de gozaimasuka?" still sounds weird to me.In the situation that keigo is required, it's better to use the words as properly as possible, just in my opinion.