What ARE your legal rights in Japan as a foreigner?

[Charles Barkley]

Sigh... Charles where is your evidence that the people who voted on those polls had not already been to Japan? And heck, what is anyone doing when it comes to another language, learning perhaps, even those in Japan? Thanks for your insight... You know what the problem is with foriegners judging other foreigners Japanese ability, most of them can't speak reasonable Japanese so anyone who seems better than them MUST be good. But yet if to be evaluated by a native speaker they may still only have basic vocab and speaking skills.

Where is my evidence? Its in the link you provided--go through the list of people in that thread who have their location listed as 'Japan' and then see what the average number of kanji studied is (I am not actually asking you to do that of course, as it would be a herculean task). The creator of that thread himself had listed in his profile that he had never been to Japan, and if you read through it (which I had done in the past, which is why I called you on your bullshit reference to begin with) you would see that the majority of people who self-assess (there's another reason not to cite the poll) themselves as knowing only a few kanji list their locations as overseas.

I noted that it was a learner's forum because people who can read the paper are probably unlikely to be posting on there, though of course there are exceptions like Elizabeth and Orochi and occasionally yourself who are kind enough to go there to offer help.

I have nothing all to say about the level of Japanese amongst foreigners living in Japan, so no need for the little lecture at the end, as I am not purporting to know anything about the matter beyond my (necessarily) limited personal experience. My point was simply that neither should you.

ETA: a few people in that post who self-assessed themselves knowing 2000+ kanji said that they do so because they are Chinese. I don't know if your argument is about foreigners as a whole or more specifically about western foreigners, but if its the former a poll based on kanji knowledge would bode quite well for the 'average' foreigner in Japan.

 

[Glenski]

So, Dave, you are saying that in order to get by in Japan and avoid all of your problems with legal rights being abused by the Japanese police, foreigners shouldn't even be here unless they have the speaking ability of a Japanese teen (junior high student)? Totally impractical. Please acknowledge that.

As for your case with speeding, you only provided an isolated case again. I'm sorry, but even though I see your point on the advantages of knowing enough Japanese, this is just one situation.

Re: Debito
Yes, I felt he was baiting the police officer, too, but the fact remains that even after the cop showed that he understood Debito's status, he asked him to prove it again! At least the guy was naive enough to go running through the airport trying to get a native Japanese person to show ID, too (which he is not supposed to do), but the fact is, the cop was coming close to abusing Debito's rights. Was it because Debito is caucasian? Who can say? But, he clearly explained the situation and the cop asked for ID again.

Re: Idubor case
I think you may have misconstrued part of that case. You cited the part about the judge not understanding the defendant's wife. It was not because of her lack of Japanese. It was because of a poor court interpreter, which in itself is an enormous shame and legal shambles.

Pachipro wrote:

Even if you know no Japanese whatsoever, all you have to do is produce your "papers" and I'm sure you will be on your way.

I'm sorry, but no, you don't know this for a fact. You cannot be 100% certain of this.

And please don't feed me anymore BS that they are prejudiced/racist. They are just doing their job

And, the governor of Tokyo does not utter racist comments, and the police do not provide input to racist magazines about "gaijin crime", nor does the police publish skewed (even false) crime statistics... Yeah, sure.

 

[Emoni]

Well said Glenski.

I do think there is middle ground on the issue of language and misunderstanding. While I agree that speaking the language will give rise to easier communication, at the same time the more Japanese I learn the more I understand and find serious issues that exist and see the danger of loop holes in the laws that must be followed (see the issue of showing id and the bike stuff, and the cops simply saying there may have been crimes recently)

Will I say that Japanese police suck and are evil. Of course not, but they are the ones with the power, so you better educate yourself and know how that power might be abused as well and arm yourself with SOME knowledge to fight back. I agree that the Japanese language falls in with that, but not quite in the way Dave is saying.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Where is my evidence? Its in the link you provided--go through the list of people in that thread who have their location listed as 'Japan' and then see what the average number of kanji studied is (I am not actually asking you to do that of course, as it would be a herculean task). The creator of that thread himself had listed in his profile that he had never been to Japan, and if you read through it (which I had done in the past, which is why I called you on your bullshit reference to begin with) you would see that the majority of people who self-assess (there's another reason not to cite the poll) themselves as knowing only a few kanji list their locations as overseas.

What you may have failed to realise that a lot of those people who aren't in Japan and voted have a likelyhood of them already been to Japan but have since returned to where ever they are now and there is no way of determining that is there(That little flag thingy changes when you move bro). Which gos to show that if their ability was low ,that would mean their ability was low while they were in Japan. And no where did I say it was the be all to end all stats on people who know Japanese in Japan, however it is better than just taking my word for it. And now I am curious, you seem to be studying Japanese, how many of your friends can communicate as good as a first grader(I hope you know hoe well a firstgrader can speak Japanese) And this goes to another point on the average time spent in Japan for a foriegner, b/c unless you study before you come the shorter the time the less likely someone is to pick up the language. I would like to see stats on this.

I noted that it was a learner's forum because people who can read the paper are probably unlikely to be posting on there, though of course there are exceptions like Elizabeth and Orochi and occasionally yourself who are kind enough to go there to offer help.
I have nothing all to say about the level of Japanese amongst foreigners living in Japan, so no need for the little lecture at the end, as I am not purporting to know anything about the matter beyond my (necessarily) limited personal experience. My point was simply that neither should you.
ETA: a few people in that post who self-assessed themselves knowing 2000+ kanji said that they do so because they are Chinese. I don't know if your argument is about foreigners as a whole or more specifically about western foreigners, but if its the former a poll based on kanji knowledge would bode quite well for the 'average' foreigner in Japan.

So I have limited experience, no problem I leave that with you to judge my experience in Japan then.
I was not lecturing , just pointing out a fact. If it offends you bad luck b/c that is the way it is. It is like having an amature assess a pro athelets ability, from his/her standpoint the pro is very talented, but from a coaches standpoint the athelets ability could only be very mediocure. So if you keep that in mind and realise that Japanese beginers are amatures there oppinions on someones elses Japanese is pretty much worthless, this of corse will get better as you learn more of the language.


As for singleing out foriegners, the thread from the beginning has had many references about being stopped for the way you look (European, ect ,ect) So that is why I commented on "westerners" ability. Maybe if you read some of the thread you could have picked that up?

 

[FrustratedDave]

So, Dave, you are saying that in order to get by in Japan and avoid all of your problems with legal rights being abused by the Japanese police, foreigners shouldn't even be here unless they have the speaking ability of a Japanese teen (junior high student)? Totally impractical. Please acknowledge that.

Glenski just so you don't get confussed and and start misinturpreting what people are writing I will show you a few quotes .

My point is if you can't convey yourself in this countries language I think you you prepare yourself accordingly. It is not feasable to have a translator with every officer and nor should they have to.

what was I talking about when I said accordingly? Another quote.

b/c if you can't answer the officers questions and they are suspecting something then your right to temporay freedom will come into jeopardy pretty fast. And when it does, don't go complaining that you were unfairly treated and had your rights violated, this is reality.

Pure and simple, my point is that if you can't handle the way things are done here and your language ability or lack of it WILL makes things more difficult, you have three or maybe more options. #1, learn more Japanese to help things run more smoothly while you are here. #2, If you don't want to learn Japanese or can't for some reason, then suck it up if questioning becomes long and drawn out. #3 , The good old ,go home line. Just don't start crying fowl because you were qeustioned for 20 mins on a footpath after being questioned about your bike, or the many other circumstances someone may run into ect, ect, ect, ect.


But Glenski, read my posts and try not to twist my words to suit your agenda.

As for your case with speeding, you only provided an isolated case again. I'm sorry, but even though I see your point on the advantages of knowing enough Japanese, this is just one situation.

But I have sighted many situation, but they were met with comments like, "But thats not what we are talking here" , I just must be the luckiest guy here not to be asked for my alien card and all the times that I have had to show some form of ID to the law for some reason or another and over the years it really does exceed into maybe hundreds of times due to the fact that I regulary have to go to the police station for my companies cars parking certificates and other things to do with business ect,ect and I have not once been asking for my alien card as proof of ID. The only time I pull that card out is at immigration and the airport.
Re: Debito

Yes, I felt he was baiting the police officer, too, but the fact remains that even after the cop showed that he understood Debito's status, he asked him to prove it again! At least the guy was naive enough to go running through the airport trying to get a native Japanese person to show ID, too (which he is not supposed to do), but the fact is, the cop was coming close to abusing Debito's rights. Was it because Debito is caucasian? Who can say? But, he clearly explained the situation and the cop asked for ID again.

All I can say is that he did not have to show the ID in the end. Why was that? B/c Dave knows the language and the law, so again my point is proven that trouble can be averted if you know the language. However it could have been averted a hell of a lot quicker with a different approch.

Re: Idubor case
I think you may have misconstrued part of that case. You cited the part about the judge not understanding the defendant's wife. It was not because of her lack of Japanese. It was because of a poor court interpreter, which in itself is an enormous shame and legal shambles.

Now why would someone with good Japanese need an interpreter? The fact that she had an interpreter shows me that she was not equiped to answer the court and needed an interpreter, is that a fair assumption? If so , it again goes to my point that things are made a lot smoother for you if you speak the language.

 

[orochi]

Heck, even I am smart enough to know that if I became a Japanese citizen, I would always carry my Japanese passport with me just to lessen the hassle if I were stopped.

Japanese citizens are not legally obligated to carry identification.
Therefore they cannot be forced to show identification that they may very well likely not have on them.
And while we're talking about the law...

Even though the police apologized to me when I produced my gaijin card at my home, they still took me in because it was the law, and the law is the law. As much as I disagreed with it and though it foolish, it was STILL THEIR LAW!

Why do you adhere to the law in this quote, but still think that Japanese citizens of certain skill colors should feel obliged to carry identification? That is not in the law.

Now why would someone with good Japanese need an interpreter? The fact that she had an interpreter shows me that she was not equiped to answer the court and needed an interpreter

Whoa whoa whoa. Earlier you were saying that a foreigner should have the Japanese ability of a first grader. Now you are saying they should be able to conduct themselves in a courtroom? How high are you going to push this hurdle? Being able to handle daily matters, workplace chores, and social activities are one thing. Handling yourself in a legal dispute in a courtroom is entirely different.

 

[Charles Barkley]

What you may have failed to realise that a lot of those people who aren't in Japan and voted have a likelyhood of them already been to Japan but have since returned to where ever they are now and there is no way of determining that is there(That little flag thingy changes when you move bro).

Actually there is, bro. If you click on the profile link, it lists whether or not one has been to Japan before, which is how I was able to say the creator of the thread had never been to Japan. I am not sure why you would want to count those who 'have been to japan and since returned' as part of your statistics showing that foreigners 'IN JAPAN' on average have poor Japanese when that would only serve to further misrepresent the current population of foreigners in Japan (diluting it even further with those who stayed only temporarily), but I'll chalk it up as another attempt to avoid saying 'oops, my bad, I shouldn't have cited that ****** poll" (which by the way, I hold in much lower regard than your opinion).

Me personally? My experience in Japan is limited to JET and my experience in the countryside. Including myself, the percentage of JETs in my town with above a 1st graders Japanese level this past year was maybe 4-13. The other western foreigners in the area that I knew (a carpenter a housewife and one other guy) were also all above that level, so 7-16. What does this mean? Next to nothing I am sure, since my experience in no way represents Japan as a whole.

It is like having an amature assess a pro athelets ability, from his/her standpoint the pro is very talented, but from a coaches standpoint the athelets ability could only be very mediocure. So if you keep that in mind and realise that Japanese beginers are amatures there oppinions on someones elses Japanese is pretty much worthless, this of corse will get better as you learn more of the language.

I am having difficulty figuring out what you are trying to say here. What is this bit in reference to, and who are the pros/who are the amateurs? Am I naive to think you are not just trying to brag about your own Japanese and put down others in the thread?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Whoa whoa whoa. Earlier you were saying that a foreigner should have the Japanese ability of a first grader. Now you are saying they should be able to conduct themselves in a courtroom? How high are you going to push this hurdle? Being able to handle daily matters, workplace chores, and social activities are one thing. Handling yourself in a legal dispute in a courtroom is entirely different.

I never said that someone needs an ability of a first grader, I said that half the foriegners here have ablility less than a first grader. In reagrds to the topic about how "fluent" you need to be to get by I said this,

But if you want an answer to your new question,Which BTW is next to impossible to estimate, you have to be fluent enough to not misunderstand what you are being asked and be able to express yourself well enough for the other person get a full picture of what you are saying. So yeah , I would say you would have to know Japanese pretty well. Maybe a junior high school students level in speaking would be sufficient, which is pretty high.

So there it is ,I even put it in bold so you would not make a mistake this time.
Look , read the posts I have written and don't try to connect dots that are not there. You have a bad habbit of doing this.

Actually there is, bro. If you click on the profile link, it lists whether or not one has been to Japan before, which is how I was able to say the creator of the thread had never been to Japan.

But yet when I click a member (mike Cash) who has been here a very , very long time low and behold it says he has never been to Japan... Gasp, is he lying or really has not been here? Here is the link for you. https://jref.com/forum/member.php?u=36
So no, you can't just do what you are impplying.

I am not sure why you would want to count those who 'have been to japan and since returned' as part of your statistics showing that foreigners 'IN JAPAN' on average have poor Japanese when that would only serve to further misrepresent the current population of foreigners in Japan (diluting it even further with those who stayed only temporarily), but I'll chalk it up as another attempt to avoid saying 'oops, my bad, I shouldn't have cited that ****** poll" (which by the way, I hold in much lower regard than your opinion).

Well, they had already been in Japan which says that while they were here they were not that capable in Japanese. And I never said the poll was an absolute b/c it actually states a figure of much higher percentage of people who don't know much Japanese, so please don't imply that I am trying to make something out of nothing, b/c I took thos ethings into consideration that you stated above.

Me personally? My experience in Japan is limited to JET and my experience in the countryside. Including myself, the percentage of JETs in my town with above a 1st graders Japanese level this past year was maybe 4-13. The other western foreigners in the area that I knew (a carpenter a housewife and one other guy) were also all above that level, so 7-16. What does this mean? Next to nothing I am sure, since my experience in no way represents Japan as a whole.

And I have met about 30 Jets give or take and I only knew 3 or 4 that had reasonable Japanese ability and one guy that was very good, but he was a jet a long, long time ago ,he has since married and moved here.

You think I am so wrong, get some data to prove me wrong. I will happly conceed to you, but untill someones does this sites info is all we have to go on.

I am having difficulty figuring out what you are trying to say here. What is this bit in reference to, and who are the pros/who are the amateurs? Am I naive to think you are not just trying to brag about your own Japanese and put down others in the thread?

If you think I am trying brag about my Japanese than you certainly understand the analogy, so don't say you don't understand what I am trying to convey when you do. And who are the pros and amateurs, well the pros would be the native speaker and anyone who is on the same level and the amateurs would be the beginers and anyone in between can be ranked just like an aspiring pro athelete. So as you make your way up that ladder and your language ability increases ,along with it will be the ability to Judge someones elses Japanese ability correctly. And too answer the querstion you are going to ask "how does someone rank this ability?" you don't , the more you learn the more you will understand.

And for the record speaking about the way something is and this is the way it is for anything that involves some sort of assesment , does not automaticaly mean that I am applying that situation to me personally, so no, I am not trying to brag about anything, only someone who is insecure about him/herself will take it that way.In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job? Would you like to learn Japanese off someone who is mediocre at Japanese or a native speaker?

 

[orochi]

I even put it in bold so you would not make a mistake this time.

Your patronizing tone spurns the debate forward in an even more promising direction...

But yet when I click a member (mike Cash) who has been here a very , very long time low and behold it says he has never been to Japan...

So you admit the data is unreliable? Then why did you even cite it to prove your case? I am confused. Are you just trolling this thread?

 

[Glenski]

Sigh. Dave, I can see some of your points, and I hope that you recognize that I agree with them. However, there are some that you just don't seem to get. Or you just aren't explaining clearly.

#1 and foremost, please don't say that I twist words to suit any agenda. I don't twist words. I try to understand them. And, I have no "agenda". You make me sound conspiratorial.

Second, what the heck does this sentence mean? The English is so badly worded that I can't understand it in order to respond.

And this goes to another point on the average time spent in Japan for a foriegner, b/c unless you study before you come the shorter the time the less likely someone is to pick up the language.

my point is that if you can't handle the way things are done here and your language ability or lack of it WILL makes things more difficult, you have three or maybe more options.

I hope that I have shown you that I agree with this.

What becomes confusing is the way you wrote earlier. It appears (to me anyway) that you are advocating that people shouldn't even come here to live until they know enough Japanese to handle interrogations (even simple ones) by the police. I oppose that sort of thinking, but can you just clarify if this is what you meant or not? I'm getting the impression now that you don't feel that way.

Just don't start crying fowl because you were qeustioned for 20 mins on a footpath after being questioned about your bike, or the many other circumstances someone may run into ect, ect, ect, ect.

I don't think it is the time factor here that people complain about. The chief complaint is the reason they are stopped and asked for ID. Do you think that for the people who are stopped for very little reason, they deserve it? If it appears that a foreigner is being interrogated only because he is a foreigner, that's wrong and illegal, and that's what some of us are complaining about, no matter how good or bad one's Japanese fluency is.

All I can say is that he did not have to show the ID in the end. Why was that? B/c Dave knows the language and the law,

I'm sorry, but your logic is wrong. He did not have to show ID because he asserted that he was a naturalized citizen (several times), and police cannot ask citizens for ID. Remember that the cop initially asked if it was ok if they spoke in Japanese. We don't know if he could also have communicated with Debito in English. Perhaps yes. Perhaps no. The issue was not language fluency and communication. It was the fact of his citizenship. Did the language make it easier to understand that? Obviously NOT, for reasons I have already explained!

As for your own situations, you are really mixing them up. You cited being stopped only once for speeding (once that I recall, anyway). Isolated incident. Then, you try to add to that situation (where you were not asked for ID) the many times you voluntarily conducted business with the police, which is a totally different thing from facing the possibility of having your human rights abused in a confrontational situation where you are suspected of a crime. Please stop coming back to this. Why were you never asked? Yes, because of your language skills, but also because there was no confrontation, only business!

Now why would someone with good Japanese need an interpreter? The fact that she had an interpreter shows me that she was not equiped to answer the court and needed an interpreter, is that a fair assumption?

Idubor's wife did not have good enough Japanese skills to directly voice her statements in court, yes. That's why she needed an interpreter -- to translate her statements. However, the interpreter did such a crappy job that

the statements he/she voiced for her were poorly translated

, and that is the major problem here, not that Idubor's wife's language fluency is weak. So, yes, yes, yes, you are right in that if she had been highly fluent, she might have voiced her statements better, but that is not the issue in that story. Get it?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Your patronizing tone spurns the debate forward in an even more promising direction...

I am not the one misquoting and I am fed up with people twsiting what is being said.
I appologise if I was rude.

So you admit the data is unreliable? Then why did you even cite it to prove your case? I am confused. Are you just trolling this thread?

Although there may be a few inconsistencies in the poll ,it still has some truth about it. But why are we now debating why I used this poll? If you have any data to refute my experiences than I am all ears.

 

[orochi]

But why are we now debating why I used this poll?

Because we are trying to figure out how valid your argument is based on the resources you are citing. Don't offer "evidence" if you don't want it scrutinized.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Sigh. Dave, I can see some of your points, and I hope that you recognize that I agree with them. However, there are some that you just don't seem to get. Or you just aren't explaining clearly.

#1 and foremost, please don't say that I twist words to suit any agenda. I don't twist words. I try to understand them. And, I have no "agenda". You make me sound conspiratorial.

Second, what the heck does this sentence mean? The English is so badly worded that I can't understand it in order to respond.

If I did not word things clearly enough I am sorry.
This sentence,

And this goes to another point on the average time spent in Japan for a foriegner, b/c unless you study before you come the shorter the time the less likely someone is to pick up the language.

What I was trying to say was, I would like to know the average time spent living in Japan for a western foriegner?

I hope that I have shown you that I agree with this.

What becomes confusing is the way you wrote earlier. It appears (to me anyway) that you are advocating that people shouldn't even come here to live until they know enough Japanese to handle interrogations (even simple ones) by the police. I oppose that sort of thinking, but can you just clarify if this is what you meant or not? I'm getting the impression now that you don't feel that way.

I see that you agreed with me.
And as for the second segment. No , the opposite, come to Japan and have a good time. But those who do need to realise they are in another country with different rules and should not complain if something or someone inconveniences them due to their lack of langauge skills, b/c 9 times out of 10 it is not the fault of the other person but in fact theirs. So to sum it up, don't whinge and whine b/c you don't get the same treatment as home.

I don't think it is the time factor here that people complain about. The chief complaint is the reason they are stopped and asked for ID. Do you think that for the people who are stopped for very little reason, they deserve it? If it appears that a foreigner is being interrogated only because he is a foreigner, that's wrong and illegal, and that's what some of us are complaining about, no matter how good or bad one's Japanese fluency is.

From the many articles I have read inconveniences are also a big complaint.
My opinion is that, if it happens to other Japanese then yes ,I don't see a problem and it has been established that it does(happen to Japanese). Is the ratio tipped in favour of a foriegn looking person being asked over a asian looking person, I don't know? But , I do know there is more rules to be broken by a foriegner for them to more frequently like visa overstay, so I say that the police have every right to ask foriegn people for ID even if the incidence is quite a bit more than the asking Japanese.

I'm sorry, but your logic is wrong. He did not have to show ID because he asserted that he was a naturalized citizen (several times), and police cannot ask citizens for ID. Remember that the cop initially asked if it was ok if they spoke in Japanese. We don't know if he could also have communicated with Debito in English. Perhaps yes. Perhaps no. The issue was not language fluency and communication. It was the fact of his citizenship. Did the language make it easier to understand that? Obviously NOT, for reasons I have already explained!

I don't see it as being wrong, b/c I am arguing that language ability allows you to avoid complications and Dave avoided that by YES saying he was a naturalized citizen and quoting the law. My point I was making was that if someone could not clearly convey that , they would have complications in that situation. I didn't comment on him being asked in the first place and whether that was wrong or not, b/c I think we already discussed that topic.

As for your own situations, you are really mixing them up. You cited being stopped only once for speeding (once that I recall, anyway). Isolated incident. Then, you try to add to that situation (where you were not asked for ID) the many times you voluntarily conducted business with the police, which is a totally different thing from facing the possibility of having your human rights abused in a confrontational situation where you are suspected of a crime. Please stop coming back to this. Why were you never asked? Yes, because of your language skills, but also because there was no confrontation, only business!

I just saw the relevance due to the fact that if police are indeed racially motivated then I don't see why they could not in fact ask for my alien card as one of the two forms of ID. But I have not experienced that.

Idubor's wife did not have good enough Japanese skills to directly voice her statements in court, yes. That's why she needed an interpreter -- to translate her statements. However, the interpreter did such a crappy job that , and that is the major problem here, not that Idubor's wife's language fluency is weak. So, yes, yes, yes, you are right in that if she had been highly fluent, she might have voiced her statements better, but that is not the issue in that story. Get it?

I get it and like I said in my earlier post I don't want to post on the case, but the fact that language plays a part.

I would find it hard to discuss that case due to the fact that non of us would be able to know the whole story. And I have my doubts that Dave does either. (unless he is intimately involved in the case)

 

[FrustratedDave]

Because we are trying to figure out how valid your argument is based on the resources you are citing. Don't offer "evidence" if you don't want it scrutinized.

I didn't say I didn't say I did not want it scrutinized and I have not complained otherwise. Anyone can argue the validity of the data with their opinions and so can I.

 

[Glenski]

Dave,
Please stop repeating yourself and ignoring the matter at hand here. That matter is this -- foreigners often have their human rights abused in Japan. It may or may not have anything to do with their ability to communicate in Japanese. You say it does, and I say it does not. You cite 9 out of 10 cases are the fault of the foreigner's lack of sufficient Japanese. Ok, I put it to you now to support that with facts and data.

You find it hard to post on matters related to the Idubor case? The only matter to discuss is this one -- a Japanese translator screwed up in court and the law let him get away with it, so this led to shoddy treatment of a foreigner who is still suffering physically in prison when there was no proven evidence to put or keep him there. It does not, nor did it then, matter about language fluency of the defendant or his wife in that case.

BTW, why is it so important to know how long the average western foreigner has stayed in Japan? How do you define western? Are you counting tourists? (They may have different immigration regulations that limit them here.) If you really want some figures, I believe the average case (not counting tourists) is 3 years. If pressed, I think I could find the data itself. Let's go with this figure for laughs, ok? What now?

 

[pipokun]

Please don't forget that Japanese people are also interrogated, not the non-Japanese only stuff.

 

[Pachipro]

Pachipro wrote:

Even if you know no Japanese whatsoever, all you have to do is produce your "papers" and I'm sure you will be on your way.
​

I'm sorry, but no, you don't know this for a fact. You cannot be 100% certain of this.

And please don't feed me anymore BS that they are prejudiced/racist. They are just doing their job

And, the governor of Tokyo does not utter racist comments, and the police do not provide input to racist magazines about "gaijin crime", nor does the police publish skewed (even false) crime statistics... Yeah, sure.

C'mon Glenski, I am certain almost 100% because I have never heard of a case where someone was taken in for showing their gaijin card when they have done nothing wrong. Nor have I ever experienced it myself in all the cases, save one, when I had it on my person. If that were the case I would have a nice lawsuit on my hand and would probably win with the right lawyer these days. And neither did I know anyone who it ever happened to. Therefore, I stand by my comment and as I mentioned, if you know of one please post it here as I would be very interested.

Also, like Frustrated Dave, I WAS NEVER asked for my gaijin card the few times I was stopped in my car for a drunk check or when I was caught once for speeding. NEVER! Why do you find that so isolated and rare? I'm sure it happens often on a daily basis.

As far as the governor of Tokyo is concerned or a few police here and there, and stories to the magazines, of course there always will be isolated incidents just as there are here in the US and other countries. Overall, the majority of politicians and police are not as racist as you would have everyone believe. It is NORMAL and SH*T HAPPENS EVERYWHERE! Hellooooooo! That doesn't make it right or makes it justified, but it happens in all countries concerning foreigners. ALL COUNTRIES! Not just in Japan. Did those remarks or stories sway Japanese opinion as a whole against foreigners? Probably not as most Japanese probably see it for what it is and, besides, the magazine articles were refuted.

I can point you to a many articles here in the US where politicians have said much in the same vein as the Tokyo governor, and more than a few articles in magazines and such saying the same exact thing about foreigners here in the US. Again it does not make it right, but it DOES happen and always will till ever and ever, amen.

Therefore, one must prepare themselves for the fact that it may happen to them in a foreign country, but please don't be surprised when it does. In 99.9999% of the cases nothing will happen if you carry your papers, don't make a fuss, and show them when asked.

 

[Charles Barkley]

You think I am so wrong, get some data to prove me wrong. I will happly conceed to you, but untill someones does this sites info is all we have to go on.

I wish I could get some data--that was my whole point in continuing to read the thread! Perhaps I was unclear in my previous post where I said that I had nothing at all to say about language ability of foreigners in Japan. Let me state it again then: I have nothing at all to say. I was not saying you were wrong. Nor was I saying Orochi was right. I was interested in the discussion and would like to see some decent statistics on the subject, so I was reading along hoping someone would be able to offer some. My only objection has been to your continued insistence that the JREF poll holds any credibility. As I said in my last post, I would rather hear your own opinion without facts than such a crappy poll. As this was just a small point which I was hoping you would quickly acknowledge, I will let it go here and not further clog the real discussion.

If you think I am trying brag about my Japanese than you certainly understand the analogy, so don't say you don't understand what I am trying to convey when you do.

I am not trying to brag about anything, only someone who is insecure about him/herself will take it that way.In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job? Would you like to learn Japanese off someone who is mediocre at Japanese or a native speaker?

Again I am failing to understand your analogy--who is hiring whom for what job? And what does preferring to learn from a native speaker have to do with anything?

As far as I can tell, you have introduced the language argument as a way to brag about yourself (is there any other way to interpret your going on about 'no namari'), label others as unqualified to comment, and justify why you, unlike the unfortunate individuals being described in the thread, have escaped illegal, unjust treatment. Impressive egoism.

 

[Pachipro]

Originally Posted by Pachipro

Heck, even I am smart enough to know that if I became a Japanese citizen, I would always carry my Japanese passport with me just to lessen the hassle if I were stopped.
​

Japanese citizens are not legally obligated to carry identification.
Therefore they cannot be forced to show identification that they may very well likely not have on them.
And while we're talking about the law...

Originally Posted by Pachipro

Even though the police apologized to me when I produced my gaijin card at my home, they still took me in because it was the law, and the law is the law. As much as I disagreed with it and though it foolish, it was STILL THEIR LAW!
​

Why do you adhere to the law in this quote, but still think that Japanese citizens of certain skill colors should feel obliged to carry identification? That is not in the law.

I KNOW Japanese are not required to show ID orochi, and I was NOT inferring that they were. You misunderstood my post. I was referring to the fact that IF IT WERE ME and I was a Japanese citizen, I WOULD MYSELF carry my Japanese passport with me to lessen the hassle and smooth things over as I totally do not look Japanese so why would a Japanese official think I was? Japan is not the US or the UK or Canada where it is understood and ACCEPTED that many nationalities are citizens. Even still, racial profiling exists in all those countries.

 

[pipokun]

...
illegal, unjust treatment.
...

Not nitpicking, but nobody explains why it is illegal and unjust.

(taiko666 seems to provide some explanation related to immorality here before. Interesting, but this thread is about legal rights/requirements)

The law gives us the same protection.
The problem is when those in power choose to offer varying levels.
This could be a police officer or a hotel manager.
This is where the problem is--execution and enforcement of the law.

Orochi's argument, something like the above, the same protection under the law is right. But the opinions, illegal/unjust, are mixed up 2 different laws, the law on the police stop & question and the legal requirement based on the immigration act for non-Japanese to show their ID at the official request.

Different law, different execution/enforcement (or simply a different procedure)

 

[Pachipro]

[/quote=Glenski]

Just don't start crying fowl because you were qeustioned for 20 mins on a footpath after being questioned about your bike, or the many other circumstances someone may run into ect, ect, ect, ect.

I don't think it is the time factor here that people complain about. The chief complaint is the reason they are stopped and asked for ID. Do you think that for the people who are stopped for very little reason, they deserve it? If it appears that a foreigner is being interrogated only because he is a foreigner, that's wrong and illegal, and that's what some of us are complaining about, no matter how good or bad one's Japanese fluency is.

All I can say is that he did not have to show the ID in the end. Why was that? B/c Dave knows the language and the law,

I'm sorry, but your logic is wrong. He did not have to show ID because he asserted that he was a naturalized citizen (several times), and police cannot ask citizens for ID. Remember that the cop initially asked if it was ok if they spoke in Japanese. We don't know if he could also have communicated with Debito in English. Perhaps yes. Perhaps no. The issue was not language fluency and communication. It was the fact of his citizenship. Did the language make it easier to understand that? Obviously NOT, for reasons I have already explained!

The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! Japan is not other countries as I have mentioned countless of times, but you fail to acknowledge it! Why do you fail to see this and understand this? Would I, as a foreigner, and NOT a Japanese citizen, be able to claim, "I am a citizen! You have no right to ask me for my ID!"?

In your thinking, it would be perfectable acceptable and preferable for the police to say, "Oh OK. Please go on your way." Then I commit a terrorist act. Can''t you see the logic here for them stopping all non-Japanese/Korean/Chinese looking persons whether they be citizens or not? I fail to understand your thinking here or I must be a complete idiot as I do not think it wrong for a foreigner or foreign looking person to be stopped for his ID in Japan. In the US, or Canada, etc, probably, but not in Japan. It is not wrong, nor is it illegal IMO for the reasons stated regardless of how good one's Japanese is as I'm sure there are many "terrorists" (for lack of a better word) who speak the language of the country they wish to do harm to fluently and are probably well versed in their culture also.

In Debito's case, the only logical way he could prove his citizenship, as he did not look Japanese is to produce a passport whether he was fluent in Japanese or not as how in God's name is a policeman supposed to know that for sure? Because he said so? Quite illogical IMO.

Do you honestly believe that your human rights are abused because you are stopped for no reason at all in a foreign country where you look like a foreigner? And where is written that it is an abuse of your human rights? Is there a "World Constitution" regarding human rights of a foreigner in a foreign country where it is forbidden for the the authorities to ask for proper ID? Until there is I will see no problem with Japanese asking for ID whether you are just walking in the street and minding your own business or riding your bicycle.

And, if there were such a "World Constitution" guaranteeing this right, I'm sure terrorists acts and crime would rise substantially in all countries of the world. And who would we have to blame? The police who were just doing their job and obeying the law by not asking suspicious people and/or foreigners for their ID, or the people who insisted on such an inane law?

Until Japan becomes a nation of immigrants where any person, regardless of their looks, could be "Japanese" and, therefore, the police would be wrong to ask them for their ID, I see no reason to claim abuse of human rights or prejudice/racism when they ask you for your ID.

But, if that were to happen, then it would not be Japan anymore would it? It would be just like any other mundane western country and why would anyone want to live there then? With all it's flaws, and the few "hassles" foreigners have to face, Japan is unique (as well as many other Asian countries) and I hope it stays that way.
​

 

[Emoni]

[/quote=Glenski]
The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! Japan is not other countries as I have mentioned countless of times, but you fail to acknowledge it! Why do you fail to see this and understand this? Would I, as a foreigner, and NOT a Japanese citizen, be able to claim, "I am a citizen! You have no right to ask me for my ID!"?

Until Japan becomes a nation of immigrants where any person, regardless of their looks, could be "Japanese" and, therefore, the police would be wrong to ask them for their ID, I see no reason to claim abuse of human rights or prejudice/racism when they ask you for your ID.

But, if that were to happen, then it would not be Japan anymore would it? It would be just like any other mundane western country and why would anyone want to live there then? With all it's flaws, and the few "hassles" foreigners have to face, Japan is unique (as well as many other Asian countries) and I hope it stays that way.
​

This makes perfect logical sense... until 2 seconds later when you realize how racist this actually is. Then you get a shiver realizing how easily mindsets are justified like this, how how this is the very logic that so much is justified in Japan. Let alone the situation of foreigners dealing with police stops "just because" they are foreign.

Pachipro I love your posts, but I hope you carefully reread what you just posted here. Then go read a few articles on racism in Japan and other ethnicities, read on how slavery and other issues were justified, and I truly hope you question this idea of "keeping Japan pure" in whatever exact sense you might have in your mind.​

 

[Glenski]

Pachipro,
Your profile says you have not lived here for the past 20 years. Things have changed somewhat since 1988.

Japan is not other countries as I have mentioned countless of times, but you fail to acknowledge it!

I don't fail to acknowledge it at all. It has no bearing anyway (the fact that Japan is not like other countries, if that's what you mean). Japan signed an international treaty against racial discrimination, yet that was over 10 years ago, and it has yet to enact a single law to enforce that treaty. Reason? They say it would be hard to enforce. Sigh.

As for "The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! " Just looking foreign is not reason enough according to the law, but police abuse that law.

As far as the governor of Tokyo is concerned or a few police here and there, and stories to the magazines, of course there always will be isolated incidents

Oh, come on! What nonsense!
1) Those are NOT isolated incidents.
2) To say they happen and shrug them off as isolated is putting on blinders and ignoring the problem.

In your thinking, it would be perfectable acceptable and preferable for the police to say, "Oh OK. Please go on your way." Then I commit a terrorist act. Can''t you see the logic here for them stopping all non-Japanese/Korean/Chinese looking persons whether they be citizens or not?

Don't put words in my mouth. You obviously have not read a single word that I wrote about the reasons police stop foreigners and how wrong this is. I can't debate with people who do that.

Besides, no foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act in Japan, or haven't you heard? Don't throw out that lame excuse like a Japanese politician or cop or immigration official.

Do you honestly believe that your human rights are abused because you are stopped for no reason at all in a foreign country where you look like a foreigner?

Why don't you?

 

[FrustratedDave]

I wish I could get some data--that was my whole point in continuing to read the thread! Perhaps I was unclear in my previous post where I said that I had nothing at all to say about language ability of foreigners in Japan. Let me state it again then: I have nothing at all to say. I was not saying you were wrong. Nor was I saying Orochi was right. I was interested in the discussion and would like to see some decent statistics on the subject, so I was reading along hoping someone would be able to offer some. My only objection has been to your continued insistence that the JREF poll holds any credibility. As I said in my last post, I would rather hear your own opinion without facts than such a crappy poll. As this was just a small point which I was hoping you would quickly acknowledge, I will let it go here and not further clog the real discussion.
Again I am failing to understand your analogy--who is hiring whom for what job? And what does preferring to learn from a native speaker have to do with anything?
As far as I can tell, you have introduced the language argument as a way to brag about yourself (is there any other way to interpret your going on about 'no namari'), label others as unqualified to comment, and justify why you, unlike the unfortunate individuals being described in the thread, have escaped illegal, unjust treatment. Impressive egoism.

Ok, Charles I will explain my reasoning. As you said Quote " As I said in my last post, I would rather hear your own opinion without facts than such a crappy poll. " ,I provided my own oppinon and my reasoning for posting about my Japanese ability (even though I knew I would ridiculed for it , and seen as just trying to show off) was to establish that someone with good Japanese can in fact get by and avoid a lot of trouble. If you want to believe I was braging that is your prerogative.

As for my analogy, they are seperate posts and have nothing to do with my language ability and they were seperate posts, that is all there is to it.

But if you can't understand it(analogy) then I am lost for words as I am finding it difficult to make it simpler. Does anyone else understand what I am trying to say?
Anyway I will try to explain further for you.

In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job? Would you like to learn Japanese off someone who is mediocre at Japanese or a native speaker?

It is like having an amateur assess a pro athelets ability, from his/her standpoint the pro is very talented, but from a coaches standpoint the athelets ability could only be very mediocure. So if you keep that in mind and realise that Japanese beginers are amatures there oppinions on someones elses Japanese is pretty much worthless, this of corse will get better as you learn more of the language.

You seem to like basketball with a handle like yours so I will try to explain in basketball terms.
Lets say Mr A 35 years old, is a beginer who has just started the game and had never had any intrest before and is bsically starting from scratch. He can do the basic skills driblle the ball ect, ect. Then there is Mr B 35 years old, is a Pro Basketballer for 10 years, and was MVP many times over, so quite a good athelete in the Pro world and very skill full at his game.
Now lets say YOU Charles are in the business of scouting players and you need a scout to scout for pro teams and the better the player you scout the more money you receive if they turn Pro. Now these two guys Mr A and Mr B are the only applicants for the job, both are willing to accept the terms offered by you. Who would YOU choose to fill the position if you were in this postion? Mr B of corse, why have a guy Mr A who has just started basketball and knew nothing about the game or skills untill recently, how could he assess the players skills? Mr B however knows everything there is to know about the game and then some.

So now we apply this analogy. Again, lets say you run a company of providing translators for big firms and are in the market for someone to fill the postion of hiring, so this person has to assess the ability of the applicants Japanese. Of corse the better the translater the better the money for the company. Only two applicants apply, Mr A a 35 year old, who has just started learning Japanese recently and Mr B a 35 year old , who has lived here for over 20 years , went to school here from highschool to college and has worked in a typical Japanese company up until now. Who are YOU going to choose? Again Mr B of corse. Why? B/c Mr A does not know his a$$ from his nose when it comes to judging someones ability in Japanese b/c he himself does not understand Japanese to the extent required. Now lets say Mr C a 35 year old who has lived here for 5 years since he was 30, has studied Japanese for those 5 years, but because you can only learn so much in the time he still has a long way to go, but can speak quite well and is doing pretty good in the writing department too. Again who would you choose to fill your postion in the company? Again Mr A, why? B/c although Mr C is qiute good he still won't be able to assess someones ability as he himself does not have a good enough grasp on the language even after studing for 5 years.

And the hiring an amateur for a pros job question was a rhetorical one.

If you really want some figures, I believe the average case (not counting tourists) is 3 years.

This is interesting as you have to wonder how good someone could get at Japanese in a 3 year period? That is considering that not everyone studies full time and some don't even bother at all.
Anyway, charles I hope you got the meaning this time and can see how I am trying to relate it to people who are still in the learning phase of Japanese would find it difficult to assess another foriengers language ability, that is all I am trying to say. I am notsaying that I am the only one that can do it b/c that is a load crap, there are people here know the langauge better than me and like I said before if you think thats what I am trying prove, well that is your prerogative.

 

[Glenski]

In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job?

I can see you have had little or no experience in eikaiwa, or you don't understand the eikaiwa marketing logic.

This is interesting as you have to wonder how good someone could get at Japanese in a 3 year period? That is considering that not everyone studies full time and some don't even bother at all.

Why is it interesting? Go ahead and wonder. There are those who do both things you describe above, and everything in between. I would hazard a guess that most TEFL newcomers learn scant little, by choice, and very few people study full-time (whatever that means, especially since it's hard when you are working).

Just thought I'd respond more fully to Pachipro, who wrote:

Do you honestly believe that your human rights are abused because you are stopped for no reason at all in a foreign country where you look like a foreigner? And where is written that it is an abuse of your human rights?

The answer is in the Police Execution of Duties Law, Section 2:
"A police officer is able to ask for a person's ID, but only if based on a reasonable judgment of a situation where the police officer sees some strange conduct and some crime is being committed, or else he has enough reason to suspect that a person will commit or has commited a crime, or else it has been acknowledged that a particular person knows a crime will be committed. In these cases, a police officer may stop a person for questioning."

So, there you have it. No World Constitution needed. The problem is, police officers bend this law a lot when they encounter situations where they question only the foreigners.

Also, just for edification and education, there is another clause that states police officers cannot force you to go to the police station or koban against your will unless they are arresting you.