Divorce and visitation.

Revenant

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I'm in a bit of trouble at the moment... I'm getting divorced, and my wife tells me that if I don't have a good relationship with her (and I don't at the moment), or if I ever find another relationship, that I can't see my son. Her reasoning is that my son wouldn't want to see us in a neutral or poor relationship (i.e. he'd be better off without me), or that he wouldn't want to hear rumors of me with another woman. I can understand, but I am a little infuriated that she would threaten to take my son away. As I see it, he is my son, and I should be able to see him in almost any situation (I'm not abusing him or my wife in any way, nor do I argue in front of him), and I'm not sure that he would simply be better off without me. Is what she or I reason somehow off the mark?

I'm aware that divorce is done quite differently here, with one parent being treated as if they were dead. It is done with the idea that a clean cut is better than the hard feelings that are often present between the divorcees. But it is worrisome to me that I might never be able to see my son again were my wife to decide that.

Just for those that don't know, Japanese law doesn't provide visitation rights.
 
Sounds like she wants her cake and eat it too. So you can't ever have another relationship? That is basically a no win situation for you. She knows this, and I get that it's her way of telling you that she doesn't want you in her life or your sons. I think your son has a right to both his parents. I can't help you with the law part, sorry, but I do feel for you and your situation.
 
I can fully, and empathetically feel and understand your general position and feelings, worries and anger. I can say this because I have been down that road here, in Japan. That said, each individual is of course layered differently, each set of events leading up to a certain circumstance colored with ever so slightly different hues. I had been thinking every since one post of yours sometime back.

I have also had an acquaintance here in this area who 'lost' children of age for a while. As it seems to have turned out (I don't meet him so often) he is getting to see the kids some. He hung out here, facing some difficulty to be able to do that.

I 'lost' but was able to cut off (in my head) the present (at that time) for a possible future--a gamble. I now have contact with the two, and I can see myself in them, and they have acknowledged a part of me, obviously and undeniably in them. That makes for a close bond without any hard feelings. Yes, there were questions when we first met after some 18 years, but in listening to them, and they to me...we all understood that more than likely little had been lost by the cut, and maybe, even, some had been gained. (that is if the ex and I had simply stayed together for the children then, it would possibly have more likely created a worse atmosphere for their development)

There are some details missing that I would argue would be needed to really answer your main question to any closely satisfying degree, but as is, I'd tend to posit that it is the mother who is in the wrong here. It looks like emotional blackmail to me--it looks...I could be wrong. If both of you want a divorce. If it is clearly due to incompatability, then she has no right to force you to remain single or free of sexually based relationships with other women, on the threat of not allowing your son to have any relationship with his biological father !! I will respond more if anything else comes up.
 
I 'lost' but was able to cut off (in my head) the present (at that time) for a possible future--a gamble.
The gamble that you could see your children again?
There are some details missing that I would argue would be needed to really answer your main question to any closely satisfying degree.
Feel free to ask, I might answer in PM if it is quite personal.
 
Yes, that is correct. At the time we had two children, the elder one somewhere around 28 months, and the younger one around 9 or 10 months. Know the Japanese style even then, and yet knowing that more likely than not, my parents would maintain contact with them, I decided to start anew, and let her take them as she was bent on doing anyway. It worked out well in that way...I am still helping them in their paths toward become people of the world...world citizens.

I'll ask some questions then, as I get around to framing them firstly. Bed time now.
 
As a child who wasn't raised with her father and didn't have visitation I am maybe too close to the situation to be objective. That being said, I went through it and didn't have the positive outcomes that MM's children appear to have had. I don't have a relationship with my father even now. My brothers suffered the worse. Boy's need their fathers. You can say that the "ex" can re-marry and there they can get a father figure, but it still isn't you. I missed out on a lot, even the word Dad and Father is foreign to me. You are a part of this childs life, he deserves you and you deserve him.
 
I can think of three concerns which would be good to have knowledge of.

One being the length of the marriage, and general development of it. Another would be general cause, or course of events/changes/developments that led to the point of wanting a divorce.

Then, there would be the difference in the degree of wishing for or reasoning for a benefit (in whatever way) in getting a divorce. Having this information would be helpful in considering the whole situation.
 
We've been married for eight years, and the decision to marry at least on my part was largely influenced by her being pregnant with my child, and her deciding that she would go back to Japan. She told me that she would take care of the child, and that I could just send money if I wanted, that it wasn't necessary to marry to take care of my child. I decided that I really should take care of the child, and I thought that I might feel that it was not right having a child in the world that I didn't know. I got on with her well enough at the time, and thought that even though this wasn't what I had imagined in a marriage partner, that over time I could come to accept it and perhaps even to find a great relationship. Something that got on me right away was her strong-will and how she would threaten till she got what she wanted. I should mention that when we decided to get married, we had known each other for two and a half months.

It was soon after we got to Japan that I went out and got drunk. I got together with two girls on two different nights within the space of two weeks (one I kissed, the other I almost slept with). Dunno, I still wasn't too serious about marriage, and I somehow felt I was missing something in my relationship with my wife. I was looking for someone that actually seemed to like me. I was honest and told her about both, and promised it would never happen again. She still didn't trust me, even though nothing had happened for seven years. She believes people don't change.

The marriage felt empty for a good eight years, and stuff that I asked for, such as a clean house (our place was a constant clutter of bags, rotting food in the fridge and bags around the house, papers strewn all over the floor), dunno, I'm a tidy person, and I tried cleaning the place quite a few times, it quickly ended up the way it was before (within the space of a couple of days).

When we arrived in Japan, since she knew what she was doing, I gave her control of the finances, but later I wanted to know what was happening with the money, and I was irritated to see her buying stuff that she never used with my money. She never let me know what was going on, and she continued buying stuff that she never used (we've got stocks of food, cooking supplies, and other stuff that she never uses), and I was living with a very small allowance that she wasn't willing to renegotiate, and at one time demanded I reduce my allowance from 20 000yen to 10 000yen. She was good at saving, but I also felt she wasted a lot of money on stuff that went bad or she never used.

I also need a healthy diet, my health isn't as good as other people's, and I suggested I cook for myself, since she didn't want to eat what I wanted to eat, and that she most often cooked something fairly unhealthy up. She was opposed to my cooking for myself, and said we must eat as a family.

I got tired of having little control over what happened, add that to a marriage that we both agreed felt empty, and I just didn't want to be there anymore. I talked to her about getting divorced in September 2006.

She agreed to the divorce, saying that it felt empty, and that she didn't want to waste more time in an empty relationship. Now she wants to try again cause she's been thinking of what family means, and that my son wouldn't want us to get divorced. I'm somewhat opposed to the idea just cause she holds the belief that people never change, and thus I will never change. I'd guess that due to that belief it would still be an empty relationship.

She reasoned at the time we decided to divorce that she could find a partner that she could have a good relationship with (that has seemingly changed recently), and I reasoned that I could get control over my life again, being able to eat what I wanted to eat, live in a simple and tidy place, go to bed at a reasonable time (sometimes I'd end up having to stay up till 4am with no place to sleep while she finished up her preparation for work the next day), and perhaps someday find a partner that I could get on well with.

She found an interest in June last year, an Aussie living in a different part of Japan she was quite interested in. They did a lot of e-mail exchanging, video mails, instant messaging, and talking on the phone. She finally decided that she couldn't wait till I had moved out to see the guy and find out whether he was the right one, and she went to his place and spent a night with him in September (nothing happened), she decided he wasn't mature enough, and broke that off. I found a girlfriend as well, but that's been quite rocky cause I'm still married, and I'm going to break that off given the terms my wife's given me.

She told me that I must decide between my son or that girl, and that I must accept my son and her as a set. I can't see my son without her, cause that's what my son would want, and I must have a good relationship with her, cause that's what my son would want, and that we should rechallenge the relationship. If I don't accept those terms, then I can't see my son again, and she promises she will never take my son to Canada (she agrees that it would provide my son with a lot of opportunities in the future, and that it would be great for him to know my side of the family, nonetheless).

I'm mulling over whether I could actually rechallenge the relationship, cause if I can't put my heart into it, then it's going to be tense for my son, and if she can't change her belief that people never change, then it will be an empty relationship. What would be best for all of us? I really don't know. I'm also wondering if she can actually do some of the things that I find necessary for sanity, such as keeping the place tidy (most of the stuff was her stuff, clothes, bags, papers, etc etc).

I know I indicated I didn't have a girlfriend in my first post, I wasn't ready to post that yet. Anyways, that's pretty much over, so I don't have a girlfriend, cause I'll break that off when next I see her.
 
Alright. Thanks for opening up with that. I'll mull over the details and get back. Having a girlfriend might not be such a bad thing at the moment. . . because who can really say what will go down next--and it does seem that she had made the first move in that direction, so. . .

I'll get back soon enough. MM
 
One thing I learned, you don't have to be honest, or truthful. I know that sounds terrible, but I remember what my one counselor told me. If you've done something wrong and acknowledge it, aren't going to do it again then you don't have to confess. If your confessions are going to hurt more than help don't say it. I wouldn't have told her about the girls, unless of course she was going to find out. I wouldn't tell her anything that she could use as a weapon against you. She says you can't change because SHE can't change. You will never get ahead with her.
 
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Having a girlfriend might not be such a bad thing at the moment. . . because who can really say what will go down next--and it does seem that she had made the first move in that direction, so. . .
Actually yes and no. She met up with two guys here that she soon decided she wasn't interested in back in December 2006, and I found my girlfriend in May 2007. So I actually found a partner first, but she was the first to start looking for one.
 
The key point, and what actually matters most, is just that. . . the 'looking for'. . . the state which translates into an act. Therefore I would absolutely say that it was her. The incident of having 'fun' or that 'almost' thing you had experienced upon just coming to Japan, can be understood as a larger state of being which does put a natural pressure on the male, more than the female. It should also be kept in mind that the 'looking' element is that which is rooted in the intention of creating another pair bonding--whereas the 'one night stand-like' event is not.
 
Just an update. My wife has decided that I can see my son, if my son wants to see me, and that I can have the divorce, provided I don't go out in public with any girls until they are in Canada next April. She doesn't want to hear rumors, and she wants to protect my son from rumors as well.

The girl I was seeing just broke up with me, cause she's been stressed out over having to maintain secrecy and not being able to go out. Well, dunno what that means, but that's the way things go I guess.

I'm trying hard not to bury my feelings, cause that's what I usually do. I know I won't be able to feel good again until I actually feel the sadness first.
 
Thanks for the update ! I'm still going over some of the details, and will get back...maybe by Tuesday at the latest. Sorry.

Also I had missed Goldiegirl's post until I had printed the thread out for more careful examination. What her counselor had mentioned is a correct matter--as far as I've seen. Canada next April? (2009?) or do you mean next month?
 
She agreed to the divorce, saying that it felt empty, and that she didn't want to waste more time in an empty relationship. Now she wants to try again cause she's been thinking of what family means, and that my son wouldn't want us to get divorced. I'm somewhat opposed to the idea just cause she holds the belief that people never change, and thus I will never change. I'd guess that due to that belief it would still be an empty relationship.


Hmm...It sounds like your wife is/has been very selfish and controlling over you, which is not good.

You are dealing with a lot of this for the sake of your kids yes?

It seems like she is laying down rules which she is not applying to herself, like how she is refusing to let you go and live your life and move on relationship-wise by going out with other women, but on the other hand she has attempted dating another guy/s herself while she is still married to you.

People can be good parents but bad lovers and vice versa. You don't need to be in a relationship with your wife to be a good parent, i think she's using your child a lot to control you even though she says she's only trying to do whats best for the child. I'm sure she loves your son greatly, but it sounds like she has a lot of issues with herself; on the hand, she sounds rather insecure- she had no confidence in the relationship that she had with that Australian guy, perhaps she was trying to find a father replacement with him or perhaps she was simply trying to find a new love in her life, perhaps she is feeling affection-neglected. But on the other hand she sounds like a rather controlling and stubborn individual, she sounds like she has most of the power in this relationship between you and is not giving you many reasonable/considerate options nor is really listening to you much on matters with stress you out.

To be honest, i don't think either of you should be in a relationship with each other right now, nor with other people. Neither of you are really going to be able to move on until this divorce business is sorted. I do think you should have the right to have relationships with other women, but i don't think its advisable right now as it sounds like you've got a lot of serious stuff on your plate to handle right now- you need to concentrate your energies on sorting your current problems with your wife out.

I really don't think you should stay with your wife though for the sake of your child, because i don't think it will actually do your child any good- i don't know how old your child is, but seriously, kids can notice and realize issues going on between their parents- you are not going to be able to play happy families with your wife forever especially if you really aren't happy with a lot of things in your life with your wife. You don't need to be in a relationship with her to be a good parent. If you're sincerely happy in your life and your wife is herself too, your child is far more likely to benefit from this true happiness than your child is going to benefit from you staying in an unhappy and stressful relationship with your wife.

I think the main thing in all of this is that you keep conflict to a minimum during your divorce and that you are able to see your child on a regular basis. Divorce rates are very high in comparison to marriage rates in my country (i think its the case in Japan as well), and i do think it is possible to get divorced and still raise a happy child with the mother of your child as long as you help ensure that the child is brought up in a stable and happy environment in which he gets to see both of his parents regularly and spends good happy quality time with both you and your child's mother 👍 .
 
You are really in a desperate and painful situation . I feel sorry for you . I can not change the law . I can only wish that things be fine with you soon .
 
I might sound a bit... like a snake now, but in my opinion, the best thing you could try is to stick to her conditions for now. Spend time with your child as much as possible, until he grows up a bit that is. Sooner or later he will definitely reach a point where your existence will be engraved in his mind. I mean, when he's like fourteen, your ex-wife probably won't be able to order your child not to meet with you, not to see you. As time goes he will grow more and more independent. Its all up to your child, that way he will choose it for himself.
 
I might sound a bit... like a snake now, but in my opinion, the best thing you could try is to stick to her conditions for now. Spend time with your child as much as possible, until he grows up a bit that is. Sooner or later he will definitely reach a point where your existence will be engraved in his mind. I mean, when he's like fourteen, your ex-wife probably won't be able to order your child not to meet with you, not to see you. As time goes he will grow more and more independent. Its all up to your child, that way he will choose it for himself.


Hm i don't think the kid should be put in a situation where he has to choose between his parents- his parents are gonna get a divorce, its a state of reality, things need to be gone about in the fairest and most agreeable way if possible, you don't want any losers in these kinds of situations.
 
Just needing some other more objective input here. It was a few weeks ago that I printed out the immigration forms for Canada, and discovered that she couldn't go to Canada without me if she wants a permanent residential visa.

So I felt that for my son, I would have to move back in with her again so we could save money, and that I would have to move back to Canada for a year or two. I would have to live with her again for a good two or three years, and then come back to Japan to pay off 3 million yen to her as well as continuing alimony. The 3 million is cause of the two girls I had mentioned earlier. She threatens to take me to court if I don't agree, and as I understand it, the court would probably award her the 3 or 4 million. There's no way I could pay that off anytime soon in Canada, so I felt I had to come back to Japan.

As mentioned earlier, she wants to rechallenge the relationship, and so she felt it was a great opportunity to make it work. I told her that we never know, it could work, but that I wasn't making any promises, and that I also wanted my permanent residential visa in Japan before I went to Canada. She took that as an indication that I still have in mind to divorce her, which is true. She hasn't talked to me since then.

But she had told me earlier that she plans on staying just one or two years in Canada, so I don't see going to Canada with her to get her a permanent residential visa as worth giving up my jobs here, having to live with her again, re-establish myself in Japan once again, and pay her back all that money after I come back.

I feel a little bad for considering denying my son the slight possibility of living in Canada for a long time, but it doesn't seem worth it. Am I off the mark here?
 
I don't really understand why the court would make you pay her 3 millions. Does the court decision apply when you are not a full fledged Japanese citizen?

I must also say that I admire your brave demeanor for the sake of your son...if it was me, I'd have ran away a long time ago without her being able to track me down.
 
Just a quick update for any who have been following. We're not going to Canada, and I'm attempting to force the divorce in Japan. From a sanity point-of-view, for both myself and my son, it seems the best choice. Hoping the wife/ex-wife and I have a more steady civil relationship after the dust has settled. I'll also be able to see my son as well. She tried at one time to deny my seeing my son, but she just didn't have the heart for that. She gave up after three days. No worries there.
 
That sounds great ! I think that is the best choice, and I also think that you'll be able to do the divorce procedures by Canadian law--per your territory--unless the Japanese law has changed since 1987.

I don't see any need to pay anything other than regular alimony...that 3 million yen thing sounds like a bluff, or power play thing...although I could be wrong there; not really knowing that person. I mean, I don't really think she could pull it off in court, and I (if I were in your shoes) simply would refuse to pay that...no questions asked.
 
I'm so glad to hear that update Revenant, I hope it all works out now. :-)
 
I'm glad to hear that you're starting to straigten it all out, too. Hopefully things will work out for the best. I do agree, though, that not going to Canada was probably the right choice. How's your visa situation, going, btw?
 
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