Gov't to consider Japanese language ability as requirement for long-stay foreigners

[Davey]

Well I don't see anything wrong with this, on the contrary I think it's a very good idea:

Japanese fluency could ease visa conditions

Conditions for resident visa status of skilled foreign workers such as engineers may be relaxed if they attain a certain level of proficiency in Japanese, government sources said Monday.

The measures, including shortening the required number of years of work experience required, are being considered both to increase the variety of foreign workers being accepted in Japan and to encourage more foreigners to study Japanese, the sources said...

...The Foreign Ministry and Justice Ministry are considering shortening the number of years of work experience required to about five from 10, according to the sources...

...There is concern that relaxing conditions could lead to a decrease in the quality of workers, but if they have proficiency in Japanese they would be able to learn the relevant skills in Japan, the sources said...

Read the whole article

 

[Glenski]

Interesting article. Following hot on the footsteps of the other one, this time with all anonymous ministry sources. Not comforting.

For now, let's just examine what is needed for an engineer's work visa. This is a copy/paste from the MOFA web site. Colored emphasis is mine.

The applicant must have graduated from or completed a college or acquired equivalent education majoring in the subject relevant to the skills and/or knowledge necessary for performing the job concerned, or the applicant must have at least 10 years' experience (including the period of time spent studying the relevant skills and knowledge at college
I just wonder how many engineers currently working here do not have the necessary degree and had to rely solely on their years of experience instead? In other words, just how many people does this hypothetical policy really affect?

And, once again, the article talks about a vague "resident visa status" (something associated in my mind with people who are already residents here, not people who are just applying for their first work visa), and then they explain this carrot as follows: "The relaxed conditions would be applicable to foreigners who want to enter Japan for specialist or technical jobs". Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.

 

[centrajapan]

I am against! I never like the idea of forcing someone to do anything. If people are not motivated they will not learn if people are motivated people will learn. The classes should be up to the person to decide if they want to learn japanese or not.

The other reason why I am against it is because I speak Japanese and English. I feel I am in a strong position because of it. If more people are able to speak Japanese I get more competition which is NOT GOOD for me.

I dont think it is a big deal not being able to speak the lnaguage of the country you live in. It would help but it is not neccessary.

In Norway I am not sure if it is manditory or not. I dont think it is manditory. I am not sure to be honest. Most long time residents end up speaking Norwegian it seems like.

On local TV in Oslo there was a Norwegian langauge programme for Pakistanis. Its one of my favourite shows ever. Its so funny. There are 5 Pakistanis. One of them speaks fluent Norwegian and he is the teacher. Then ther are the other guys who are students. Some are more motivated than others. Some show no motivation at all for learning. And the teacher tells the student that they need to try and the student is like..naaa. having a why? attitude. This old Pakistani man who is almost 70 who has been living in Norway for ages yet does hardly speak the language or try to learn the langauge. Its not the ideal situation but thats OK too. In anycase.

They need such English shows in Japan too. The ones in Japan are weak.

 

[JimmySeal]

The other reason why I am against it is because I speak Japanese and English. I feel I am in a strong position because of it. If more people are able to speak Japanese I get more competition which is NOT GOOD for me.

Sounds pretty selfish. You want others to remain ignorant for your own benefit?

And is this what you call "able to speak Japanese?"

ﾅ?ﾂｿﾅｽﾅ｡窶慊ｪ窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堋｢窶愿ｯ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢

Surely, you must be joking.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countries, but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?

Oh no... not that one again.

Why is it English speaking nations expect people to speak English when in our own countries

I don't know anybody who thinks this. But it's true, in the UK I do speak to strangers initially only in English. That's better than just grunting or waving my arms about, which is how the Japanese often address me in Japan.

but expect people to provide English signs or be able to speak English in other countries not our own?

Exactly who expects this? Not even on this thread has such a sentiment been expressed.

HHmm... Do you live under a rock? How often in initial conversation do you see people in English speaking countries try to converse with someone in that persons language? How about never. Most Japanese will go out of there way to speak English to you b/c the majority of the gaijin here don't give a rats bottom about learning the language. And your comment about people grunting and waving arms is a dirrect result of foreigners not even attempting to learn the lauguage, so of corse most people are going to assume that your average gaijin will not be able to understand Japanese. Hense the problem that most of us face. And your assumptions just make a stronger case as to why people should have to speak Japanese when taking up residence here. I would have hoped that someone living here as long as you have could have realized the dim fact to why we are treated like we are.

You my friend seem very short sighted or is it ignorance?


And just b/c nobody has brought this up in the thread does not mean that it does not exist. Most English speaking people going on vacation in a foriegn country when entering a conversation with a local ,will inevitably speak English first and then if all fails will try to converse using a dictionary or give up completely. But when the situation is reversed most non English speaking people will attempt to converse in English (And just so I don't confuse you too much, I am talking about the majority here).

 

[Taiko666]

How often in initial conversation do you see people in English speaking countries try to converse with someone in that persons language?

OK, let's say that (in the UK) I've already heard a stranger speaking exclusively Japanese (for example.) Even though I can speak 'reasonable' Japanese, I would do that person the honour of demonstrating their superior language skills, rather than assuming they can't speak English. If it turned out that Japanese was the better option, then I'd switch to Japanese.

And if I really don't have any hard evidence about their native language, I have no choice but to communicate in natural English or condescending sign language. Which is better?

As for your point about it being 'our' own fault that we get grunted at in Japan; I'm sure you realise not all foreigners are English speakers, yet I'll think you'll find all nationalities experience the same problem in Japan.

I agree there are many ignorant native-English tourists. It just seems that none of my friends/family has been ignorant enough to assume that everyone abroad can speak English. So I think you generalize far too much, or rely on stereotypes in sitcoms.

Most English speaking people going on vacation in a foriegn country when entering a conversation with a local ,will inevitably speak English first

With a tour rep, tourist resort hotel clerk maybe. But with a shopkeeper in a village in France? Sorry, I'm afraid I think you're relying on stereotypes. (Notice I didn't accuse you of being ignorant, easily confused, short-sighted or living under a rock though.)

EDIT: I must hang out with an entirely different crowd in Japan than you do. Everyone non-J in my company is studying or can speak Japanese, and nobody seems to expect Japanese to speak English. And the ex-pats I've met in western Tokyo have been all but fluent. And even when I go to 'western' bars in Roppongi, Ebisu etc I've only met a few who've told me they know no Japanese at all.

 

[Glenski]

OK, let's say that (in the UK) I've already heard a stranger speaking exclusively Japanese (for example.)

Special exception and not what is usually considered.

As for your point about it being 'our' own fault that we get grunted at in Japan; I'm sure you realise not all foreigners are English speakers, yet I'll think you'll find all nationalities experience the same problem in Japan.

But how many times on average do Japanese stop to consider this? Rarely, IMO. Plenty (most?) think any non-Asian face belongs to an American unless they have some other indication, or unless they themselves have traveled abroad a bit.

 

[centrajapan]

Sounds pretty selfish. You want others to remain ignorant for your own benefit?

It is not selfish to have advantages over others in work and business. Everyone wants to have an advantage. Is it selfish to study harder to be better than anyone else? Ofcource not. You sound like a communist.

It is even more selfish to force some people to learn a language. It is not up to the government but to the individual.

And is this what you call "able to speak Japanese?"

日本語じゃないの？完璧じゃん？

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.

Just to clarify are you seeing this in a positive or negative light? Clearly, needing some language ability and experience is a reasonable requirement on Japan's part.

Since degrees are increasingly difficult to obtain as competition increases, tuition increases, and the primary education starts to dwindle (especially in the US) I think it's pretty pro-active to start allowing foreigners with experience to work in Japan by rewarding their language efforts with a break on the number of years required.

As Dutch Baka said I think this is a good thing for everyone involved. "Welcome to our country, we've made it easier for you to work here. Please, would you be so kind as to learn our language in order to facilitate your stay?"

 

[JimmySeal]

It is not selfish to have advantages over others in work and business. Everyone wants to have an advantage. Is it selfish to study harder to be better than anyone else? Ofcource not. You sound like a communist.

It's selfish to want a government's policies to follow your own personal wants. Laws are for the good of the country, not just a small selection of people, and if a language requirement would be beneficial overall, it shouldn't matter that you're afraid of a bit of competition. And if you are afraid of competition, find another way to stay on top.

It is even more selfish to force some people to learn a language. It is not up to the government but to the individual.

I can't fathom where you came up with that idea.
Every government is justified in rationally deciding who can or can't immigrate to their country, and if Japan wants only residents who can speak Japanese passably, there are a lot of good reasons for such a policy.

日本語じゃないの？完璧じゃん？

「漢字頭いたい難しい」って、ちっとも「完璧」じゃないよ。

 

[Glenski]

Originally Posted by Glenski
Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.

Just to clarify are you seeing this in a positive or negative light? Clearly, needing some language ability and experience is a reasonable requirement on Japan's part.

My beef is not with a language requirement in itself. I am first trying to say that most of the articles so far have said nothing clear about who is affected and how the testing will be done. I would hope you agree that such issues are critical to the people involved (foreigners), and that not knowing yet having this thrown up haphazardly only makes matters more stressful. I mean, look how long this thread is without any clearcut answers.

Second, I believe the quote you made is slightly out of context. Here's the whole paragraph.

And, once again, the article talks about a vague "resident visa status" (something associated in my mind with people who are already residents here, not people who are just applying for their first work visa), and then they explain this carrot as follows: "The relaxed conditions would be applicable to foreigners who want to enter Japan for specialist or technical jobs". Meaning, people who are not even here yet. So, you would actually NEED the experience and NEED the language ability to be able to compete, whereas presently a simple degree will do.

One point to make is that currently, people are allowed to get engineering visas (as one example of many) with no degree but only if they show 10 years of experience. Why 10? I don't know, and I suspect the MOJ can't clearly explain. Nonetheless, it's there. The proposed policy will let people in with half that experience. In itself, that's quite a relaxation in one's skill set, don't you think? Five years is barely getting one's feet wet in most careers, but with only that and some ill-defined language skill, you can now be seen as equally qualified to the current standards. Doesn't make sense to me.

Another point I've tried to make here is that the MOJ keeps throwing up the term "long term resident" here. You cannot be a long-term resident anywhere when you just move in, and that is exactly what situation most people will be in. A newbie. So, how is it that the MOJ can boast that this policy is for long-term residents and in the same breath talk about entry requirements? Again, this is contradictory.

Since degrees are increasingly difficult to obtain as competition increases

What do you mean by this? Do you have a source to support that? I'm curious about the word difficult. Have fewer engineers, say, been graduating because of some kind of competition somewhere? I've seen quite a few IT engineers' resumes and heard quite a few of their stories about not having jobs so they switch to TEFL, but none have said anything about competition for the degrees themselves.

I think it's pretty pro-active to start allowing foreigners with experience to work in Japan by rewarding their language efforts with a break on the number of years required.

Oh, I see this POV, too, but I don't think you see my points. Please let me know if you do.
Vagueness.
Premature announcements.
Contradictory statements.

As Dutch Baka said I think this is a good thing for everyone involved. "Welcome to our country, we've made it easier for you to work here. Please, would you be so kind as to learn our language in order to facilitate your stay?"[/QUOTE]Actually, they haven't made it easier if you look at it in some respects. Aside from the 5 years not needed for experience to wangle you a work visa (and please remember what I wrote about the few people who actually take this route anyway!), there are these points:

1) Learning a language like Japanese is not a piece of cake. In order to get up to speed on some basic conversation and perhaps reading proficiency will take at least a year. For some people, their work schedules and family life may stretch this. For those who don't learn languages easily, even more.

2) So, if you have 5 years of experience now, you will still have a few years to go before you can even make a stab at the language test. Will that study time cut into your experience gained?

3) If you don't yet have the 5 years, you will have to deal with earning those five and studying a language, too. Could be tougher, not "easier".

4) I can't stress strongly enough the point above about how many degreed people vs. non-degreed actually manage to find work here. It would behoove the MOJ to throw out a few figures along those lines as justification. Otherwise, logic dictates that the degreed people are more suited to the jobs in general.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

My beef is not with a language requirement in itself. I am first trying to say that most of the articles so far have said nothing clear about who is affected and how the testing will be done. I would hope you agree that such issues are critical to the people involved (foreigners), and that not knowing yet having this thrown up haphazardly only makes matters more stressful. I mean, look how long this thread is without any clearcut answers.

Fair enough, but I just don't think the vagueness is as engineered or nefarious as some believe it is.

Second, I believe the quote you made is slightly out of context.
One point to make is that currently, people are allowed to get engineering visas (as one example of many) with no degree but only if they show 10 years of experience. Why 10? I don't know, and I suspect the MOJ can't clearly explain. Nonetheless, it's there. The proposed policy will let people in with half that experience. In itself, that's quite a relaxation in one's skill set, don't you think? Five years is barely getting one's feet wet in most careers, but with only that and some ill-defined language skill, you can now be seen as equally qualified to the current standards. Doesn't make sense to me.

If you really pressed them I'm sure the MOFA would point to some international standard or come up with a good reason why its 10 years. It doesn't really matter, that's the standard. And that's with NO language skills and no formal training. So really all they're saying is you have to be a damn good self-taught engineer to get work in Japan alongside Japanese residents who have worked hard to obtain the same job status. That makes sense to me, it is Japan afterall and the Japanese need jobs first and have to be able to rely on their domestic education system as a provider of valuable experience and accessibility to jobs.

Now, with this change, if you have some Japanese language skills you get a break. This is, I think, aimed at increasing the ability for engineers (or other professionals who'll be included here) to integrate. They start lower down the chain with that experience, perhaps, but by the time they are at 10 years they're even better suited to work in Japan than the ones who didn't know any Japanese. And all this is still without a degree.

Another point I've tried to make here is that the MOJ keeps throwing up the term "long term resident" here. You cannot be a long-term resident anywhere when you just move in, and that is exactly what situation most people will be in. A newbie. So, how is it that the MOJ can boast that this policy is for long-term residents and in the same breath talk about entry requirements? Again, this is contradictory.

I think they're trying to envision a system that applies to those entering whose intention it is to become a long term resident. I see your point and you're right, the ideas are contradictory, but the chances that they're pulling some kind of weird 'know Japanese before you come here or else' stuff is unlikely as it would harm more than hurt. As you say, we need more info.

What do you mean by this? Do you have a source to support that? I'm curious about the word difficult. Have fewer engineers, say, been graduating because of some kind of competition somewhere? I've seen quite a few IT engineers' resumes and heard quite a few of their stories about not having jobs so they switch to TEFL, but none have said anything about competition for the degrees themselves.

Oh, I see this POV, too, but I don't think you see my points. Please let me know if you do.
Vagueness.
Premature announcements.
Contradictory statements.

Well I just mean degrees are becoming more exclusive worldwide. As I mentioned previously, tuition goes up, primary education standards go down; it's just becoming difficult on many fronts for people to put their kids through college or for those kids who have the money to score well on their entry exams and get into their college or program of choice. So my point in saying Japan is being pro-active was linked to the idea that there may be fewer people with degrees and more people with just skilled trades or simple work experience showing up.

1) Learning a language like Japanese is not a piece of cake. In order to get up to speed on some basic conversation and perhaps reading proficiency will take at least a year. For some people, their work schedules and family life may stretch this. For those who don't learn languages easily, even more.

2) So, if you have 5 years of experience now, you will still have a few years to go before you can even make a stab at the language test. Will that study time cut into your experience gained?

3) If you don't yet have the 5 years, you will have to deal with earning those five and studying a language, too. Could be tougher, not "easier".

They'd obviously have to make allowances for this. Japanese companies willingly subsidize English lessons so the same companies would naturally subsidize Japanese lessons for the few foreign employees they had. Further to this point, they're already immersed, I think within 1 year you could learn quite a bit. As for those seeking work, whether you spend 5 years working as an engineer and learning Japanese, or 10 years just doing engineering, you're working hard. Your implied expectation that relocating to a foreign country, learning the language and obtaining well-paying work should somehow be easy is kind of unrealistic.

It's the same kind of unrealistic expectations some (SOME!) foreigners have when they show up on Canada's doorstep. A certain level of effort must be made if one truly wants to work/live in abroad long term, and I think these are the individuals Japan wishes to entice, not just people who wanna check it out for a bit and meh, don't really want to work hard at it.

4) I can't stress strongly enough the point above about how many degreed people vs. non-degreed actually manage to find work here. It would behoove the MOJ to throw out a few figures along those lines as justification. Otherwise, logic dictates that the degreed people are more suited to the jobs in general.

You're right, they are more suited, the others are less suited. Again, regardless of the numbers being well-researched or arbitrary, they just made it easier for some people to go work in Japan by slashing the requirement in half. Perhaps some already know Japanese and this just opened up a huge door for them. Let's just say 'the glass is at 50%' until we know more.

 

[FrustratedDave]

OK, let's say that (in the UK) I've already heard a stranger speaking exclusively Japanese (for example.) Even though I can speak 'reasonable' Japanese, I would do that person the honour of demonstrating their superior language skills, rather than assuming they can't speak English. If it turned out that Japanese was the better option, then I'd switch to Japanese.And if I really don't have any hard evidence about their native language, I have no choice but to communicate in natural English or condescending sign language. Which is better?

That is the mentality I am talking about, we (English speaking countries ) assume that because English is the language that is relied upon in the world stage that most people will be able to speak it regardless of their background. Like I said before, Japan is not an English speaking country and the majority of foreigners DO NOT speak Japanese to at least carry out a basic conversation. And let me pose a question to you, what percentage of people in English speaking countries can speak another language? Now ask yourself what percentage of non English speaking countries can speak English? Of corse the percentage is much,much higher in non English speaking countries.

As for your point about it being 'our' own fault that we get grunted at in Japan; I'm sure you realise not all foreigners are English speakers, yet I'll think you'll find all nationalities experience the same problem in Japan.
I agree there are many ignorant native-English tourists. It just seems that none of my friends/family has been ignorant enough to assume that everyone abroad can speak English. So I think you generalize far too much, or rely on stereotypes in sitcoms.
With a tour rep, tourist resort hotel clerk maybe. But with a shopkeeper in a village in France? Sorry, I'm afraid I think you're relying on stereotypes. (Notice I didn't accuse you of being ignorant, easily confused, short-sighted or living under a rock though.)

Like I said before, I talk about the majority and the fact of the matter is that the majority of foreigners that are European or african in appearance are from English speaking countries, which brings me back to my first parragraph that because English is now considered the language of the world it is then assumed that if all else fails the common ground is that two foreign people can converse in English( Again this is generally the case ). And BTW you speak of your friends not being like this, but how can you judge what the rest of the world of millions/billions is thinking from that small group of people in your imediate pressence? Again don't you think this is not thinking realisticaly?

EDIT: I must hang out with an entirely different crowd in Japan than you do. Everyone non-J in my company is studying or can speak Japanese, and nobody seems to expect Japanese to speak English. And the ex-pats I've met in western Tokyo have been all but fluent. And even when I go to 'western' bars in Roppongi, Ebisu etc I've only met a few who've told me they know no Japanese at all.

I won't say every foreign person I have met, but the majority that say they can speak Japanese fluently would have trouble conversing with a 4 year old. The problem is that people judge there own or others Japanese abililty on what they perceive to be competent, when the reality is they are in fact seen as someone who can not speak very well at all and be difficult to understand. This is especially the case when the person themself is not fluent in Japanese. But even if you and your friends are competent it still does not give the correct reprsentation of the fact that most "oubeijin, 窶ｰﾂ｢窶｢ﾃ?人" come and go without learning Japanese, again you speak of a minority ,which as I said before is not a correct assumption on the reality of the situation.

 

[Glenski]

Fair enough, but I just don't think the vagueness is as engineered or nefarious as some believe it is.

You're probably right. Stupidity is also involved, as is a dinosaur-like mentality.

If you really pressed them I'm sure the MOFA would point to some international standard or come up with a good reason why its 10 years. It doesn't really matter, that's the standard. And that's with NO language skills and no formal training. So really all they're saying is you have to be a damn good self-taught engineer to get work in Japan

Quality is not a qualification. Just the length of time you put into it.

Now, with this change, if you have some Japanese language skills you get a break. This is, I think, aimed at increasing the ability for engineers (or other professionals who'll be included here) to integrate.

Please stop and ask yourself, as I have been trying, just how many of these people get in vs. the degreed ones? Until either of us see some data, I'm going to assume it's like teachers: most have degrees.

I think they're trying to envision a system that applies to those entering whose intention it is to become a long term resident.

Speculation. No offense. Personally, I'd like to see their "vision" in writing.

I see your point and you're right, the ideas are contradictory, but the chances that they're pulling some kind of weird 'know Japanese before you come here or else' stuff is unlikely as it would harm more than hurt.

The MOJ is not known for its fair treatment of foreigners, nor intelligence. I'm not holding my breath on this one.

So my point in saying Japan is being pro-active was linked to the idea that there may be fewer people with degrees and more people with just skilled trades or simple work experience showing up.

"May". Again, just speculation. Do you have any support for the number of degrees going down?

They'd obviously have to make allowances for this. Japanese companies willingly subsidize English lessons so the same companies would naturally subsidize Japanese lessons for the few foreign employees they had.

Companies may indeed do this a lot. This is not the case in most teaching positions, and in fact to this point, Japanese is not permitted in the classroom in most cases anyway. Hence, no real perceived need. Plus, what employers may "have to do" isn't always what they end up doing.

Further to this point, they're already immersed, I think within 1 year you could learn quite a bit.

Have you tried it under conditions here?

Your implied expectation that relocating to a foreign country, learning the language and obtaining well-paying work should somehow be easy is kind of unrealistic.

Where did I imply that?

You're right, they are more suited, the others are less suited. Again, regardless of the numbers being well-researched or arbitrary, they just made it easier for some people to go work in Japan by slashing the requirement in half. Perhaps some already know Japanese and this just opened up a huge door for them. Let's just say 'the glass is at 50%' until we know more.

Half full or half empty? Too many maybes and perhaps.

 

[pipokun]

Sushi chefs need IELTS 5.5 or better in the UK now...
In a way, the French system is fairer in which the government orders you to study French there.

It is difficult to tell what the J system will be like right now, but if the system is something like... your visa would be issued more quickly after you get JLPT 1 kyu or 2 kyu, it will be easy to find a bit strange persons who cannot understand any Japanese at the immigration.
I know JLPT is the typical Japanese test without any speaking or writing tests, so first the government should conduct the test like IELTS. (No need to be as expensive as it, though)

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Have you tried it under conditions here?

Did it last year. My spoken language skills were and still are very rudimentary; although my listening isn't bad and I know OF much grammar I cannot effectively use all of it in in speech yet. My literacy isn't too bad though although writing and physical penning of kanji is tough, I understand even some Japanese struggle with it, but thats another story.

Check my blog, it's rough but its the culmination of my literacy after a year and a half of studying.

Anyway, point is, I worked full time, also trained at a local boxing gym consistently, drank myself silly (when in Rome) and still had tmie to go to my class once a week and study. It was a free-of-charge class at the local ward center run by volunteers, really nice people but probably not as intense as something company sponsored or paid for.

With a little effort I went from having zero language to having at least something within the span of a year and a bit. This is not meant to be a badge of honour, it's just what's possible with a little application and I mention it only as it pertains to the current discussion.

Where did I imply that?

It's something that seems implied by the fact that you're arguing against this whole thing. For the moment I think we both reasonably agree, however we look at the glass, that information is thin. Yet you remain noticeably critical, I get the impression that the language requirement issue is unreasonable in your eyes no matter what form it takes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by the aftertaste of your posts.

 

[Glenski]

Did it last year. My spoken language skills were and still are very rudimentary; although my listening isn't bad and I know OF much grammar I cannot effectively use all of it in in speech yet. My literacy isn't too bad though although writing and physical penning of kanji is tough, I understand even some Japanese struggle with it, but thats another story.

Just reading this, I don't know just what your level is, so it is difficult to comment on it. Thanks for the description, though.

Check my blog, it's rough but its the culmination of my literacy after a year and a half of studying.

Where is the blog?

and still had tmie to go to my class once a week and study. It was a free-of-charge class at the local ward center run by volunteers, really nice people but probably not as intense as something company sponsored or paid for.

Well, I've tried a couple of those in 2 cities. Total unadulterated crap in both cases.

With a little effort I went from having zero language to having at least something within the span of a year and a bit.

"Something" is what any sensible person would expect, and I'm not belittling what you have accomplished, just saying that again this is fairly undefined. Keep up the studies, though! I know how hard it is.

For the moment I think we both reasonably agree, however we look at the glass, that information is thin. Yet you remain noticeably critical, I get the impression that the language requirement issue is unreasonable in your eyes no matter what form it takes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just going by the aftertaste of your posts.

Ok, I'll have to correct you. I'm not going to look back on the pages here, and I've also posted my feelings on other threads here and elsewhere, so I don't know if I've made myself clear. Language requirements are good. Just what those requirements are, I can't say. I got in without any and am thankful, but I'm not stupid or naive enough to say that things should remain that way. I'm only saying 2 things:

1) What you confirmed above, that the MOJ has not said enough and has not said what they have CLEARLY enough to understand what is going to happen (or what they intend to happen).

2) this whole issue is complicated. You have English teachers (and other language teachers for that matter) who are usually told not to use Japanese in the classrooms, and this ends up finding its way to staff rooms as well when they chat with Japanese teachers of the same foreign language. Other professions seem to have a much nicer support network, yet the requirements for language proficiency seem to come only from the employers. This last point becomes an issue in my mind when you have the government stepping in. Who requires what? Moreover, there are the issues of people who are refugees, on intracompany transfer visas, SOFA status, and a few other statuses that really aren't in the same boat as John Smith with a work visa. It is because of this complexity alone that I reiterate, "Shame on you, MOJ, for making such a premature and poorly described news bulletin!"

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Above my user rating bars there's a thing that says 'Blog Entries: 6'. If you click on the little 6, which is how many I've created at the time of this post, it'll take you to my blog.

So if I understand this correctly, you're simply upset at the fact that the MOJ put the bulletin out without having clearly defined objectives? I can agree with you on that, the government of Canada and pretty much any bureaucratic body for that matter is extremely vague in what they say, usually on purpose. I think I mentioned that in a previous post. I don't know that I'd get as fired up about it however, since there is no smoking gun yet that would indicate any harm done to the status of foreigners.

Within the vagueness, it's the direction of the policy (as perceived by you) that must be the thing creating the controversy. What direction do you really see this going in? Because as I've mentioned, I just see this as basically ensuring no one lives in Japan for too long without integrating at a basic level language-wise and I find that reasonable. I don't smell a doomsday scenario looming for foreigners entering Japan, not on this front anyhow.

 

[Glenski]

Above my user rating bars there's a thing that says 'Blog Entries: 6'. If you click on the little 6, which is how many I've created at the time of this post, it'll take you to my blog.

Thanks. Have no time at present, but will look into it.

So if I understand this correctly, you're simply upset at the fact that the MOJ put the bulletin out without having clearly defined objectives?

I wouldn't denigrate the feeling with the word "simply". Yes, having a p!ss-poor news item irritates me.
1) Not enough information to know what is going to happen. This creates uncertainty and stress in an already uncertain and stressful world.

2) Cr@ppy news reporting, where you get less information in the English version compared to the Japanese version. In this case I find it painfully ironic, because if the news itself is meant to inform people who don't speak or read enough Japanese now, how are they supposed to be fully informed if all the information is written ONLY in Japanese? Catch-22.

3) Upset? Yup. The MOJ has a very poor history of dealings with foreigners, so even with the little info they had printed, I can foresee serious consequences if things go a certain way. That "if" is not as uncertain as one might imagine.

I don't know that I'd get as fired up about it however, since there is no smoking gun yet that would indicate any harm done to the status of foreigners.

I am trying to remain calm, but what gets me even as much as the above is, people who post on forums with little or no idea what is happening here, people who pooh-pooh it all with no clear logical reason, and people who say "if you don't like it, leave".

Within the vagueness, it's the direction of the policy (as perceived by you) that must be the thing creating the controversy. What direction do you really see this going in?

Hard to say. Why did the new fingerprinting policy start despite a huge battle lasting more than a decade to eliminate it? Why does the government look the other way on enacting laws against discrimination? Why does the government ignore illegal actions by most dispatch agencies for teachers, thereby reducing the quality of education, yet at the same time they promote claims that the feds are actually trying to improve it? And, even so, why can't the government stay with one concept of how to improve English education here? [example: Koizumi's administration was finally set to impose mandatory English in elementary school, then Abe nixed that. Now we are in limbo. SOMEONE had it figured out in Koizumi's time, yet the "old boy network" in power after him brushed away that rationale.] (These are rhetorical questions, so please don't answer.)

Because as I've mentioned, I just see this as basically ensuring no one lives in Japan for too long without integrating at a basic level language-wise and I find that reasonable. I don't smell a doomsday scenario looming for foreigners entering Japan, not on this front anyhow.

I really don't think we can say that there is any assurance of anything right now. If they truly wanted to make that point clear for long-term integration (something they are blatantly opposed to, you realize), then they would have spelled things out clearer, done more research [even the little ramblings you see on discussion forums took just a handful of synapses to calculate], and they would have at least TRIED to show some sincerity in the whole situation. I'm not crying doomsday here, but look at the record. It just doesn't support that view.

Sorry, but I'm going to be out of touch for a while for a week or so. I have an enormous pile of work backlogged. I'll check in a little, but can't sacrifice this much time on this sort of discussion until that work is over. I think I've made my points as clear as possible.

 

[Chidoriashi]

Taiko666 and Dave> Dave I agree that that only a minority, probably 10%, of western foreigners can communicate effectively in Japanese. But I want to add that I think part of the problem of westerners seeming to expect people to speak English to them here, could in part lie within thinking that many people can speak English in Japan. I don't know what you guys hear from people back in your home country, but a lot of people I have talked to seem to have picked up a preconceived notion that most Japanese people are proficient in English. Also I think many Westerners (especially older people) may think that Japanese is simply beyond their ability to learn. "It just looks to damn hard" etc..
(I still think that people who want to live here more than 3 years should have at least daily conversation ability though).

 

[Calchas]

....

So, basically, anyone that isn't prepared to fully adjust to a foreign country has no business living there in my opinion. If Japanese becomes too hard, stop whining and try for a European culture. ☝

That is a rather simply view. Many factors can combine to prevent someone from learning a language. For instance If I where to come to Japan as a highly skilled person with a well paid job I have the time and the money to pursue learning the language and the culture of my new home. I would NOT be moving to Japan to attain a better life but simply to enjoy another culture.

However many low to middle wage earners have neither the time nor funds to learn a new language these folks move to a new country to attain a better life for themselves and their families. They may have no real interest in becoming "Japanese" ( Or "American" or whatever) and instead devote their time to more pressing needs, like putting a roof over their heads and food on the table. They work hard so that their children can have more options and adapt better to their new home.

Laws that punish folks for not learning the host country language, while doing nothing to aid them in adapting to their new home, will in the long run only hurt the host country itself.


If Japan really wants to be multiculural and reap the benefits of that, then it needs to look at ways to accept new people rather then ways to exclude them. But if Japan is afraid of becoming a multiculural country then laws such as the one we are discussing are a good way to stop that trend.

When I hear of laws like this I am always reminded of Southern Blacks here in America who where denied the right to vote if they couldn't pass a test. Same type of law and IMHO if Japan goes down this road they will be looking for the same kinda effect.

 

[nyouyaku]

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/national/news/20080116p2a00m0na017000c.html

Learning Japanese can be very tough. I like the freedom of being a foreigner and not having to learn the language even though I did learn some Japanese to get by. It is a shock for me to even hear that the Japanese government would even expect a foreigner to learn Japanese. It was my assumption that they only expected their nikkeijins and Japanese returnees to do their due diligence to learn the language and endeavor to reintegrate themselves into mainstream Japanese society the best they could. I thought for the rest of us, it was for the fun of it or because we want to learn it, not because it was a moral obligation. Ore, sunao ni yutte mo eh kashira, ore homma wa chotto ninshikibusoku yakara, mada mada narawana akan koto ga ippai arunya. There is my so so crack at kansai ben.

Sushi chefs need IELTS 5.5 or better in the UK now...
In a way, the French system is fairer in which the government orders you to study French there.
It is difficult to tell what the J system will be like right now, but if the system is something like... your visa would be issued more quickly after you get JLPT 1 kyu or 2 kyu, it will be easy to find a bit strange persons who cannot understand any Japanese at the immigration.
I know JLPT is the typical Japanese test without any speaking or writing tests, so first the government should conduct the test like IELTS. (No need to be as expensive as it, though)

JLPT Level 1 is way too hard! Ore ni wa zettai muri ya.

 

[Glenski]

Why is it a shock to learn that any country would expect its immigrants to learn the local language? ANY country!

 

[nyouyaku]

Why is it a shock to learn that any country would expect its immigrants to learn the local language? ANY country!

Because Japanese people do not tend to expect gaijin to learn Japanese. I do not disagree that they should expect it, but culturally that is not not the reality for what I have seen in Japan that is why. I did learn a lot while I was in Japan. I did not know that Japan had a homeless problem and NEETs that are unmotivated to work. I used to think that all Japanese people were hard workers, and they had too much pride to be homeless. When I went there, my eyes were opened up for the first time.
It's okay, I learn as I go along.

 

[Mike Cash]

You felt a need to revive a thread dead over three years now in order to give us your thoughts on a no longer relevant article that didn't apply to you to begin with?

That's nice.