Science: Keep out?

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

Too many Gods, too many creeds.
So many hopes that twist and wind,
When all it is this old world needs,
Is just the art of being kind.

 

[Chi65]

Not sure I would go so far as to say 'witchhunts' - could you give an example? But sure, Science isn't perfect. There are times when Scientists refuse to accept new discoveries, clinging dogmatically to old theories. But that's scientists, not Science ;-)

Exorcism these days killed some women lately, one was a nun on balcany, another one a german women.
It was in the press and confirmed. And the german ones had to face court for murder and were fount guilty. The woman could have been helped via medicine. I have kept the article from a very respected magazin somewhere, it was during the last 4 or 3 years.
The points for excorsim are very old and still (!)valid and passed around in the catholic church, I have the list somewhere and will search.
Very similar points are on the index of several scientists (!), it makes me shudder often enough, because it fits several basic experiences of us synnies!
(but thanks to Rama etc. . . even the most sceptical ones now provide me with positive research-informations on a very sceptical forum. I won't give up at all, you see )
Just as some examples.

And yes, Elisabeth Van Kampen san, you are soo right!
Thank you very much, although sometimes its not easy to enter without a defence in mind, from experience. ;-)

 

[Mars Man]

Religion provides meaning to life, a purpose, some goals, and prescribes ethical behavior all in one package that is supposed to fit all the general needs for life.

This, I would again--and please bear with my redundency, but--argue is the very core of the matter. This, however, is not a particular belief-system (which I still notice needs to be taken into more careful consideration) that's being talked about, but religion that is an emotional function of the human (at least) brain. This is what I would re-term as 'religiosity' to avoid misusage.

From this very aspect of the human brain, it most reasonably appears, has come the drive of the various religious belief-systems that humankind have come up--from those of the humanoids who walked the plains in Africa 3 million years ago, to Scientology. It is from this very source that scientific method was born, that science as a thought form came to be. It is from this very exact emotion that art form also came to be.

I would yet wish to encourage all to consider the more precise definition--Judaism is a belief-system, Christianity and Isalm are belief systems, Jainism and Hinduism are belief-systems, Buddhism and Confucianism have become (largely) belief-systems, and so on. In that these are focused on a deity entity, they are 'religious' (as opposed to secular) in nature, thus, religious belief-systems.

To the degree that the data bases (tenets) of the several systems do not intersect nor union, they are different. To the degree that they are different, they cancel each other out as being fully truthful to empirical knowledge and the test of time. In that that has been shown to be the case, a third party should inspect them. At one time that was philosophy, today, the general field of pure science carries most of that burden.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

To the degree that the data bases (tenets) of the several systems do not intersect nor union, they are different. To the degree that they are different, they cancel each other out as being fully truthful to empirical knowledge and the test of time. In that that has been shown to be the case, a third party should inspect them. At one time that was philosophy, today, the general field of pure science carries most of that burden.

Exactly! So it's entirely appropriate for Science to investigate belief systems, religious or otherwise.

 

[yumeitsumo]

Well, personally I believe that God made everything, so god made science. Science may be a pitiful attempt for humans to figure out everything god made. I am a christian I guess... But Whatever I say I'm not sure if I'm so sure of. GOsh i don't make sense. Anyway! GOD MADE SCIENCE. GOD MADE US. GOD ROCKS.

Amen. I love Science. It's fascinating. GO science!

>.< especially astronomy. <3

 

[Chi65]

As long as science does not think, it knows all and everything (like some religious systems) and all others don't and stays open to unexpected turns and corrections, I do not mind.
It can surely help to overcome some worn out clothes, but has to consider itself to be in constant change. And there are some problems in the weaving, and we have to be carefull not to take it for the ultimate and only view, which it isn't, however much it wishes to.

 

[Mycernius]

Well, personally I believe that God made everything, so god made science. Science may be a pitiful attempt for humans to figure out everything god made. I am a christian I guess... But Whatever I say I'm not sure if I'm so sure of. GOsh i don't make sense. Anyway! GOD MADE SCIENCE. GOD MADE US. GOD ROCKS.
Amen. I love Science. It's fascinating. GO science!
>.< especially astronomy. <3

Which God? Plenty to choose from.

 

[Doc]

Which God? Plenty to choose from.

The one that knows how to party!

 

[Chi65]

At least to laugh, also about it-self

;-)

 

[Dimitree]

Stephen Jay Gould claimed to believe that the realms of science and religion should be kept separate, and that neither should encroach on the other's territory. Exploration of and exposition on the physical universe is the realm of science, and religion shouldn't speculate on matters of fact and theory. Likewise, questions of morality and ultimate meaning are religion's business, and science should keep its nose out.


Although I'm a great fan of the late Professor Gould, I have to disagree with him on this point. I think it's science's business to question everything and shove its nose into everyone's business. Think creatively enough, and you can phrase any question as a scientific hypothesis. Consider Richard Dawkins' claim in The God Delusion:


Quoted from Here

As for questions of morality, while science might not be able to offer absolute answers to ethical questions, I think it's entirely appropriate for scientists to investigate those questions, in the hope of providing some insight. For example, we (in the UK at least) allow abortion up to a certain stage of pregnancy because of a scientific understanding of foetal development. Without that insight, how would we make a decision?

What's your opinion? Should science stick its nose in where it might not be welcome? Conversely, should religious leaders speculate about scientific facts?

Sciance has become a religion for lots of people.
I just want to remind you that Sciance is nothing more then Observing what's alredy there ( and not in a satisfying way and precision ) Manipulating matter that also was already there (forget about the "we created" statements we simply Manipulated what was already there) and last but not the least Asuming in order to make something work ( for example Sciance Asumes that all the missing links in the bone archives of human "Evolution" asumably existed or do exist and are yet to be found asumingly ... ).

I have nothing against people who try to explain things in one way or another.
But making sciance something to be a stone to build your hous on to is as foolish as one can get.
Why ?
Because today scinace says that apples are purple.Some crazy person goes out looks at the apple and says it's green ! The whole world mock him and tell him how stupid he is.Two days later sciance says the apple is green ...

If you want to build your understandings of the world and everything on something completely unrealible and false and dayly changing then go with Sciance.

 

[Doc]

At least to laugh, also about it-self
;-)

Oh I think God has a sense of humor.

Ever seen a duck billed platypus?

Better yet, ever wonder why there are so many idiots in the world today?

I think things like that help keep God from being bored.

-Doc

 

[Revenant]

If you want to build your understandings of the world and everything on something completely unrealible and false and dayly changing then go with Sciance.

What do we then build an understanding of the world on then? The Bible? The Koran? The Lotus Sutra?

1. People of a lot of different faiths hold convictions that theirs is the one true faith, and some Buddhists believe that if a non-believer experienced the Dharma, the non-believer would without doubt become Buddhist, or some Christian believe that if a non-believer experienced the Holy Spirit, the non-believer would without doubt convert to Christianity.

So we can't assume that, for example, the Buddhist has the knowledge because of his convictions, or that he's a superb guy. Were I to do that though, I'd go with the Dalai Lama. He's a living example of a guy who's found serenity.

2. So if we can't or shouldn't follow the lead of those who hold strong convictions that theirs is the true faith, then how do we determine which is the correct set of beliefs? On feeling alone? My friend tells me that Dreams Come True is positively the best band out there. Dunno, I didn't notice anything about them that was even memorable. Somehow I think some religious paradigms work a lot like that. Some people are deeply moved by a religious paradigm, while others are not moved at all. And considering it's not just one idea involved with a religion, but complicated sets of them? I mean, the paradigm of original sin works very well for a person like my mother, but it's positively destructive for others. They feel an overwhelming sense of 'I am not a good person' and for a lot, just a whole lot of what I would consider unnecessary guilt.

So...... as I see it, we can't determine which of the religious texts is correct on someone's convictions, or that a particular person holding certain beliefs is a superb guy (I imagine there are superb people within almost all belief systems). Nor can we decide which is correct based on which paradigms move me the most.

So how do we decide which belief system is correct?

 

[Dimitree]

I'm not saying to build your world on a religius belives
I was not religius 23 years of my life.
But from my personale experiance relying on sciance is the last thing to do.
Why not build it with observation ?
Why not build your own truth about it ?
Why do you have to rely on some guy somewhere, or bunch of people to tell you what's what and what's not what ???
Why join the pop culture ?
Why be lazy

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Why not build it with observation ?

That's exactly what science is, my friend!

Why not build your own truth about it ?

Yes, each of us has our own experiences and our own "truths". Science is not the be all end all of things, but humanity has been able to do remarkable things using science that never would have been possible otherwise.

Why do you have to rely on some guy somewhere, or bunch of people to tell you what's what and what's not what ???

That's largely how I feel about religion, especially the monotheistic ones.

Why join the pop culture ?
Why be lazy

Because it's fun and interesting, and that's what most people seem to want. The "pop" in pop culture does come from the word "popular", after all!

 

[Tsuyoiko]

But from my personale experiance relying on sciance is the last thing to do.

Do you believe the Earth is a sphere that goes around the sun? Do you know that it's the force of gravity that prevents us all flying off into space? Do you eat? Do you use clean water from a tap? Do you drive a car or ride a bike or even walk along tarmac-ed roads? Do you use a computer? Did you ever get your picture taken? Watch TV? Visit the doctor? Wear clothes? If you do any of those things, or almost anything that any of us do in a normal day, then you are relying on science.

(btw: is 'tarmac' even a verb?)

 

[karlyboo]

I'm not saying to build your world on a religius belives
I was not religius 23 years of my life.
But from my personale experiance relying on sciance is the last thing to do.
Why not build it with observation ?
Why not build your own truth about it ?
Why do you have to rely on some guy somewhere, or bunch of people to tell you what's what and what's not what ???
Why join the pop culture ?
Why be lazy

And what about those of us who subscribe to a Scientific explanation because we actually grasp the reasoning behind it and agree?

Who precisely are this vague group of people who believe everything Science tells them because its trendy?

You're developing a very strong knack for telling people why they think certain things rather than finding out from the people themselves. Do you read tea-leaves or something?

 

[centrajapan]

Do you believe the Earth is a sphere that goes around the sun? Do you know that it's the force of gravity that prevents us all flying

Do you believe due to gravitiy from each planet that it affects human beings due to magnetic fields? I think humans do get affected by magnetic fields but not sure if they are from a planet. Maybe. There are magnetic fields on mobile phones, and around us on this planet therefore if we are affected by magnetic fields out in the universe it would be weak or in a way which we are not aware of yet. Do you believe some cultures claculated how long the world would take to go around their axis? The equinox . Not just around the sun but how many years it would take to see the stars at same place. again.

 

[karlyboo]

Do you believe due to gravitiy from each planet that it affects human beings due to magnetic fields? I think humans do get affected by magnetic fields but not sure if they are from a planet. Maybe. There are magnetic fields on mobile phones, and around us on this planet therefore if we are affected by magnetic fields out in the universe it would be weak or in a way which we are not aware of yet. Do you believe some cultures claculated how long the world would take to go around their axis? The equinox .

Not all planets have a magnetic field and it's nothing to do with gravity, it's generally to do with the iron composition of the planet (the Earth for example has an iron core).

And yes, the ancient Greek's worked out that the Earth was round and its circumference many years before the birth of Christ. Very clever bunch.

 

[Chi65]

And yes, the ancient Greek's worked out that the Earth was round and its circumference many years before the birth of Christ. Very clever bunch.

And there we go, the christians "flattened" it again, and other beliefs too, spilling the child with the bath, so to say.
While it is still clear, that there is a surface, there also is much more behind and already known for long and relatively easy to dig out again. And science can do a good part in the work, even if not the whole, that would be as narrow and the same spillings, only on the other side of the coin.
To my humble knowledge.

 

[karlyboo]

And there we go, the christians "flattened" it again, and other beliefs too, spilling the child with the bath, so to say.

But God said it was flat!! Why would he lie to us?

 

[Mycernius]

And there we go, the christians "flattened" it again, and other beliefs too, spilling the child with the bath, so to say.

Jumping to conclusion a bit quick. It was the Victorians that put about the myth that mediaeval people thought the Earth was flat. Read Dantes divine comedy. He knew the Earth was a sphere. Even when he and Virgil climbed down Satans legs, at the very centre of Hell (which was the centre of the Earth) he knew that when they reached the midway point they would have to turn to climb up, and that was at the turn of the 13th century.

 

[yumeitsumo]

Which God? Plenty to choose from.

The Christian God. Whatever. Religion is silly to tell you the truth. It's just another thing us pitiful humans try to follow and understand. ☝

 

[Dimitree]

That's exactly what science is, my friend!
Yes, each of us has our own experiences and our own "truths". Science is not the be all end all of things, but humanity has been able to do remarkable things using science that never would have been possible otherwise.
That's largely how I feel about religion, especially the monotheistic ones.
Because it's fun and interesting, and that's what most people seem to want. The "pop" in pop culture does come from the word "popular", after all!

Well sciance is not exactly that
Sciance is an institution.The provider of knowledge for this world.
They teach you all the things sciance came up with from the beggining in kindergardens to the end of univs and so on.
You look at your cat and your cat mews, your cat understands you, your cat responds to your commands, your cat aperantly speaks with other cats, your cat finds answers of difficult questions and situations with no problem.Yet sciance tells me that my cat is simply operating on instincts, and cats can't speak -_-.But oh no tell that to your cat that mews nex to the food cup or when it's cold or when it needs attention.Yes cats dont need words like My Bi Em Double V needs maintenance but they sure speak.Not to mention dogs and other animals.
I can go on forever not with the animals stuff ... There are Billions of trillions of examples of what people are being teached and made to belive in and how different the reality is.
I also consider any atheist the most lazy person on earth.I was atheist 23 years of my life but i worked hard and now i know how wrong i was.
And i can't even start typing the Physics proffesionals and so on proffesionals which i met in my life who found out how big and full with empty space is the balloon of sciance world.
Also Sciance is exceptions intollerant.
Exceptions go in a dark black corner never to be seen.
Also anything that contradicts sciance is to be placed also in that dark corner never giving the chance of true knowledge to live.
I guess if you read how some "revolutionary" discoverys in the sciance world came to be you will find that it was a battle on life and death betwean the homogen sciance sociaty and the unlucky person that found out somethign is wrong.
I am against sciance because it applys the principle of Comunists.
Everything that doesn't compute to our belives is against us and should be scilanced, forgoten, destroyd and so on.
And just for the Christian haters here
Try your best to find which sciantist were Christians and then i Dare you to type a single word agains Christianity. Thank you vewy much ☝

Anyway i just want to propose to everyone to question everything they know and everything they hear and do the reality check.
Sooner or later if you have the curage to be honest with your findings and accept them as they are you will no doubt about it find out some very very interesting things

 

[Mycernius]

Well sciance is not exactly that
Sciance is an institution.The provider of knowledge for this world.
They teach you all the things sciance came up with from the beggining in kindergardens to the end of univs and so on.
You look at your cat and your cat mews, your cat understands you, your cat responds to your commands, your cat aperantly speaks with other cats, your cat finds answers of difficult questions and situations with no problem.Yet sciance tells me that my cat is simply operating on instincts, and cats can't speak -_-.But oh no tell that to your cat that mews nex to the food cup or when it's cold or when it needs attention.Yes cats dont need words like My Bi Em Double V needs maintenance but they sure speak.Not to mention dogs and other animals.
I can go on forever not with the animals stuff ... There are Billions of trillions of examples of what people are being teached and made to belive in and how different the reality is.

Oh the innanity of it. A cat responds to the dominant animal around it. You are the dominant animal that it interacts with. It is not understand your language, you are just anthropomorphiclising the relationship that you have with the cat. The cat also has a fairly complex brain that allows it to solve cetrain problems that it encounters. Ours is even more complex which allows us to grasp abstract ideas, something a cat, dog or rabbit could never do. Yet a crocodiles brain is so primitive that you can predict what a croc is going to do.

I also consider any atheist the most lazy person on earth.I was atheist 23 years of my life but i worked hard and now i know how wrong i was.

Oh how wrong you are now. You are still an atheist when it comes to Allah, Ra, Vishnu. As for being lazy. I prefer to learn about life and research, read and learn. You appear to have given that up. Your curiosity has been killed by theism. If anything you are the lazy one. You have decided to let your intellect waste away into a bunch of superstitious nonsense.

Also Sciance is exceptions intollerant.
Exceptions go in a dark black corner never to be seen.

This coming from a theist! If life has taught me anything the theists are the most intolerant people on the planet. Not many atheists go around strapping bombs on themselves to die for an ideal. Or oppress a people because of the colour of their skin or sexual preference because a big book of fables says so.

Also anything that contradicts sciance is to be placed also in that dark corner never giving the chance of true knowledge to live.
I guess if you read how some "revolutionary" discoverys in the sciance world came to be you will find that it was a battle on life and death betwean the homogen sciance sociaty and the unlucky person that found out somethign is wrong.

I agree that in the past science has been against various discoveries, but science does move on and these discoveries are examined and bought to light. Unlike religion that will stubbornly stick to a point until they look completely foolish. The Catholic church refused to accept Galileos heliocentric universe until the 20th century. Talk about remaining in the dark. Even now there are theists that truely believe that this world and the universe is only 6000 years old

I am against sciance because it applys the principle of Comunists.

That is one of the most stupidist comments I have ever seen.

Everything that doesn't compute to our belives is against us and should be scilanced, forgoten, destroyd and so on.

No, human ignorance is to be beaten. Science improves our lives, increases our knowledge and has dragged the human race out of the dark ages of superstition. Yet we still retain the works and art of those times. Even build big expensive museums to put them in, publish books and papers on our history. hardly keeping people in the dark is it?

And just for the Christian haters here

Why do assume that all atheists are christian haters?

Try your best to find which sciantist were Christians and then i Dare you to type a single word agains Christianity. Thank you vewy much ☝

Issac Newton was a christian, yet he formulated the theory of gravity, and then spent sometime trying to fit God into it.
List of other Scientific Christians

Anyway i just want to propose to everyone to question everything they know and everything they hear and do the reality check.

I suggest you do that yourself, because somewhere along the line superstition has crept in.

Sooner or later if you have the curage to be honest with your findings and accept them as they are you will no doubt about it find out some very very interesting things

I have and I do

 

[Dimitree]

Oh the innanity of it. A cat responds to the dominant animal around it.

For my last post in this section of the forums

"A cat responds to the dominant animal around it"
Get a cat
Cats don't give a nicle about who you are.

The rest of your post is simply assuming fake wrong incorrect fantasy style things about me and what i think and how i came up with it so i will not comment.But i wonder how is it possible for me to write "Potatoe" and you to read "Potatoe" and then blame me for "Why do assume that all atheists are christian haters?"
Please quote me the line where i sayd " All atheists are Christian haters"
I dare you !

But please get a cat.You will find out how much i loughted over your bold and loud statment
Just as i enjoy the bold and loud statments of people who never realy saw a "cat" (for example)

Edit: Ou i forgot to tell a joke ^_______^

Do you know what will happen on the day when God will write his name with the stars on the sky for all non belivers ?
The sciantists will go out on CNN and say " Well because of some besare and strange astro phenomena, a couple of stars recently changed their position.For some people the new possitions of the stars write the name God Allmighty, but others say that it looks more like a pig.We are researching this phenomenon and rest asured that you will know it first on CNN when we come up with explenation"