Differentiating slang from proper language

[Janny]

Hello,
I seem to have trouble using the right words in the right context, and by that I mean that I can't tell if Japanese people are easily offended by slang.
I'm learning Japanese from a series of lessons, but after watching some movies/cartoons I realised that I had picked up slang words. So, my question is- is it that bad if, for example, I use "ore" instead of "watashi"? I mean, is it rude or anything to the person I'm talking with?
And one more thing- is it always necessary to use "ka" at the end of every interrogative sentence? Can it be sometimes omitted?
Hope I made sense, and thank you in advance for any reply.

 

[magevampjoe]

Hiya.

My understanding is that usually you should emit 'watashi'/'ore'. However, if you come across the need for it:
Ore is more casual, ie when with a group of friends, or in a situation such as colleges or universitys. Mangas and Animes usually use 'ore' along with other slang because they are normally in informal situations.
If you needed to make sure the other side knew who you were talking about, and it was, for example, a business meeting, you would use watashi I think...
Also, ka as a question marker can generally be omitted in casual situations. For example, if you were asking your best friend if he wanted to go to the cinema (I think that is 'eiga wa ikitai desuka' but I am probably wrong) you could probably omit 'desuka', but slightly raise the ~tai of ikitai to show that you are asking a question.

Also, if you asked someone 'ogenki desu ka', he might respond 'genki, genki wa?', therefore omitting desu ka in place with wa.

If I am wrong, please Moderators correct me.

Hope that my info has helped!

magevampjoe

 

[Haruspex]

ore is just as valid for I as watashi, only not in your case, as it is exclusive for males, boku, the little brother of ore however is used to females occasionally. If you want to sound feminine just go ahead and use atashi.
Although ore means I, I can't come up with an example for it, so I'll compare it to the word You.
Saying ore is like saying something like "Oi, you!"
Similar rules apply to the words temee, kisama, omae. The latter might be used between equals close enough, but the first two should be avoided unless you want to piss someone seriously.
Since you're female you can sometimes use koto instead ka when asking a question, when you hear males do the same, you'll encounter the particle na, which is a rather tricky one, but very identical to ne, only it sounds way better lol
Also females tend to use wa sometimes at the end. They generally drop da more often.
Well in a nutshell thats what you should know.

 

[Charles Barkley]

A number of things about what's written above:

-young females rarely say わ and it can be used by men as well in certain dialects. I would stress that you should not try to use it unless you are in a full immersion environment, as it will likely sound very strange.

てめえ、きさま＝ do not ever use these words unless you are extremely angry at someone, in which case, DO NOT USE THESE WORDS. If you get angry in Japanese, become more polite, not less. Unless you are raging drunk and at a bar and about to hit someone with a broken bottle of glass. These are anime words.

Ore is at the same time quite informal but also quite normal: example: many of the teachers in my office use おれ・おまえ (the equivalent of わたし・あなた when used by men) all the time. I use it when talking to the students. There is a place for it in a laid back work environment. However, there are also teachers here I would NOT use it when talking to. In a nutshell, avoid using these words until your proficiency with the language has increased. Everyone starts with watashi/anata and builds from there (even atashi will sounds a little cutesy if you're new). Nothing wrong with sounding a little formal at first.

Do not try to end sentences with こと、or the particle かーーuse ですか or the particle の or nothing at all with rising intonation. Again, you will sound weird if you try to use manga speech (notice the theme here).

Also, な and ね are not question words but words that alert the person you're talking to that it's his/her time to say some. Similar to something like, y'know, hey, etc... Na also has other uses...


"Also, if you asked someone 'ogenki desu ka', he might respond 'genki, genki wa?',"

This doesn't make sense. Better answers are: おかげさまで and はい、げんきです。 If someone asks you a question about how you are, and you want to ask the same question back, you do it like this:

A: Ｂさん は コンサート に 行く の？
Ｂ： うん、Ａさん は？

 

[nice gaijin]

In short, try to emulate the way real Japanese people speak. Characters in anime, manga, or whatever other entertainment source are not real people.

 

[Tomii515]

This is why I don't watch anime or read manga... It'd just confuse me and I also think it's pointless.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

You can accidentally be offensive by simply using plain dictionary forms instead of -masu depending on the situation. Beginner Japanese is often taught in the formal way for this reason, to avoid embarrassment and rudeness by indirectly using the wrong form at the wrong time. If you only know the formal ways of speaking, your chances of making a mistake are reduced. Or thats the logic of these textbooks, I suppose.

This approach is potentially flawed however, not because being polite is unnecessary but because as Charles Barkley pointed out there are layers of communication, and often the formal diction is not used among peers and equals. So 'textbook' Japanese and every day Japanese are sometimes quite different.

From a beginner to another beginner I would say that learning when and how to use dictionary form and masu form is a good start, just so you can make coherent sentences grammatically and end them properly. Beyond that, well put it this way, I've been learning for 1 and a half years and I still just refer to myself as watashi. It's easy and there's so much more I need to be focusing on at the moment. There's no use dissecting a small part of the language and trying to learn all it's particular ins and outs and forsaking the bigger picture; that is to say why bother trying to know how to refer to yourself and others in specific situations if what comes after isn't equally articulate?

As a rule, no matter how much of a dink you feel like being overly polite, it IS well-received by the Japanese people and actually, despite what I said above, I find it reassuring to know I'm not apt to say the wrong thing because I use masu by default. I don't expect to really migrate between levels of politeness very easily for another year or so.

And just wait till you have to start discussing giving/receiving and various other humble/honourific forms

 

[Charles Barkley]

This is why I don't watch anime or read manga... It'd just confuse me and I also think it's pointless.

I think manga and anime can be a part of learning good japanese. But I think that's all it can be--it can't be the whole of one's learning, nor can it be the only motivation. Manga with furigana will be one of the few things easily available at your level of reading until you have reached quite a high intermediate level (probably decent understanding of 800-1000 kanji). It also is interesting and has pictures, so its easier to maintain your interest and learn vocab. The problem is what kind of vocab--I remember learning あばよ、おやすいご用だ、賞金稼ぎ when I about a year ago. Really useless, out of use words. But I also learned a lot of useful words from manga.

One thing that can help is to change the kind of manga you are reading--stop reading old fashion feudal sworded fighting manga or futuristic robot manga and switch to daily life manga. 花より団子 (はなよりだんご） is a good example. Sports manga or a lot of the girls manga has a lot more useful material.

 

[superbike81]

My girlfriend tells me that most of the time only females use "watashi", however a man can use it in a situation that demands a higher level of respect. For instance, when I met her father she told me to use watashi. However when I don't omit it completely, I normally use "ore"

Slang is tough, my Nihongo class teaches me the very formal way of speaking, but here, in Okinawa especially, people use A LOT of slang. From what I've been told, people who speak a very "Okinawan" dialect often have trouble communicating with people from mainland Japan.

 

[Tomii515]

I think manga and anime can be a part of learning good japanese. But I think that's all it can be--it can't be the whole of one's learning, nor can it be the only motivation. Manga with furigana will be one of the few things easily available at your level of reading until you have reached quite a high intermediate level (probably decent understanding of 800-1000 kanji). It also is interesting and has pictures, so its easier to maintain your interest and learn vocab. The problem is what kind of vocab--I remember learning あばよ、おやすいご用だ、賞金稼ぎ when I about a year ago. Really useless, out of use words. But I also learned a lot of useful words from manga.

One thing that can help is to change the kind of manga you are reading--stop reading old fashion feudal sworded fighting manga or futuristic robot manga and switch to daily life manga. 花より団子 (はなよりだんご） is a good example. Sports manga or a lot of the girls manga has a lot more useful material.

It doesn't really hold my interest, so I don't think it would help me, in particular. I'd just get frustrated trying to read the Japanese, and I'd get bored because it doesn't really interest me.

 

[superbike81]

Don't underestimate the value of reading a simple book to help the learning process. I bought several books designed for Japanese kids just learning to read. It helped a lot, not only with easily recognizing Kana, but also with simple sentence structure.

 

[Janny]

I never knew watching anime just for the sake of learning Japanese can do more harm than good.
Thank you everyone, really appreciate it.

 

[Haruspex]

More harm? No way, it will only do more harm if you keep your eyes and ears closed. Although the language spoken in anime/manga might differ, but the core of the grammar is the same, the words are pretty much the same, the intonation is probably similar, and a great deal of anime/manga characters use the polite form all the time.

 

[Janny]

Well, the anime stuff I get on cable isn't of good quality, so to speak. I noticed that, except slang they use lots of vulgar words, but I try to remember the base words they use. But boy oh boy do they speak fast..

 

[Haruspex]

Vulgar words? Please those are part of the language too. You needn't stop watching anime because you're worried about your studies, just keep watching them, they help a lot, anyone who questions it by gut probably has a grudge against them or something.

 

[Charles Barkley]

As I said above, anime can be a part, not a huge part, but a part of learning japanese. And it can be a bigger part if you pick anime that uses more appropriate language.

Honestly though Derfel, the advice you gave at the top of the thread is reminiscient of someone who has spent a lot more time reading manga and listening to anime than exposing himself to real japanese. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if your goals with Japanese involve manga and anime, or if there's just no other japanese around that you can engage with, but you may find that if you become serious with the language and movie to japan, you will have to do a lot of unlearning/relearning.

Some good words will stick.
Some useless words (kisama, oresama) will stick.
And some bad habits will stick.

Overall I don't think this is a bad thing, especially if you are enjoying what you are doing, its just not the most efficient way to learning good japanese.