Stringing together verbs

[genericdave]

Alright, so far I've learned a few different ways to string multiple verbs together into a sentence. And although most of them are fairly simple I was wondering where exactly the boundaries lay. For example:

わたしたちは クラスで にほんごを きいて はなし て、 いすに すわって そとに みます。
I realize this is a stupid sentence, but I was trying to say "At class we hear and speak Japanese, sit in chairs and look outside." I was unsure about "にほんごを きいて はなして". Is it okay to string two verbs together for one object like this?

Then there's the whole こと and の deal. Frankly I'm a bit confused by this. In class we learned:

たべるのが すきです。
I like to eat.

But could I also do:
たべることが すきです。
If I was using a verb instead of すき would both of these be okay?

Finally, is this sentence saying what I think it is?
あ なたは にほんごで なんと いうことが しります 。
you know how to say it in Japanese.

I know this is a lot to ask in one post but it's been puzzling me for a while. Any explanations would be greatly appreciated!

 

[nhk9]

Sorry I am in a hurry but I will try to help with some questions.

There are many ways of linking verbs, depending on how the verbs are related. In your case, you can use the -tari -tari suru form, since you are listing verbs that are of similar importance, with no attention on the sequence of the verbs. Sometimes you can just use the -te form. More advanced students may use "nari" form, etc.

As for the koto vs no issue, it is not something that can be explained in a sentence or two. Sometimes they can interchangeable, sometimes not. Your 2nd year school course should deal with this in depth

you know how to say it in Japanese
あなたはこれを日本語でなんという（んです）か知ってます。 (polite, informal)

 

[genericdave]

Thanks for the quick reply. Although I still have quite a bit to be confused about. My questions seem to have a bit more to them than I originally imagined.

 

[FrustratedDave]

"At class we hear and speak Japanese, sit in chairs and look outside."

"がっこうで にほんごを はなしたり きいたりして いすに すわって まどから そと を みる"
In school we talk and listen to Japanese, we sit in chairs and look outside through the window.
However, I have to say that your english sentence is really weird to me, it does not make sense and this carries on into the sentence I wrote in Japanese too. If you were to have a native speaker read that ,they would look at you wonder what you are trying to say. I only wrote the sentence in Japanese so you can try and figure out how to put a sentence together in Japanese yourself.

たべるのが すきです。
I like to eat.
But could I also do:
たべることが すきです。

Yes you can do both of those, however the top one is used mainly in conversation, the second one is more likely to be used in writing and on top of that when used in conversation it comes across more polite and refined.

If I was using a verb instead of すき would both of these be okay?。

I am not sure if this is what you are meaning ,but you can do this,
"たべることが できる。"

you know how to say it in Japanese
あなたはこれを日本語でなんという（んです）か知ってます。 (polite, informal)]。

There is no informal version here、in fact putting the （んです） is just plain wrong.The polite version "これは にほんごで なんというか しっていますか？" ,the really polite version "これは にほんごで なんというか ごぞんじですか？"
If you want the impolite version you would say this "これは にほんごで なんていうか しっている？"。 If you were writting down a sentence you may put in "あなたは" but very rarely would you use it in a conversation(I say "rarely" as in never). In conversation "あなた" is very rarely used, only to emphasize or clarify in certain situations. This just my observation ,but the only reason why I think text books put "あなた" in is so that we don't get confused with the apparent lack of use of it in the Japanese language.

 

[nhk9]

>you know how to say it in Japanese
seems to me more like a statement rather than a question. It seems a bit odd to me at first, but I bet native speakers would simply just say "kore, nihongo de nanto iu no/ndesuka?"

the masu form can be considered to be a form of teineigo, or polite speech. And perhaps I shouldn't add the word formal since there really is not a direct corresponding category for that in Japanese. There used to be teineigo, kenjougo, sonkeigo, but now there apparently are 5 categories instead of 3.

Roughly speaking it maybe possible to categorize them as formal or informal, from the choice of words. It is informal simply because you can't write this down in a formal piece of writing. "shiru" is a casual (and basic) word, and in more formal situationis, that word can be replaced by the many other words that are similar.

 

[Elizabeth]

"がっこうで にほんごを はなしたり きいたりして いすに すわって まどから そと を みる"
In school we talk and listen to Japanese, we sit in chairs and look outside through the window.

For some reason, I would have put sitting in chairs looking out the window first but I don't know if that makes it any more natural or not. It becomes more like "In class, we speak and listen to Japanese while sitting looking out the window." Is there a compound verb for "speak and listen" or "listen and speak" by the way ? Like "read and write" is 読み書き？


がっこうで（は）いすにすわって、まどのそとをみながら、日本語をはなし, ききます.

 

[FrustratedDave]

>you know how to say it in Japanese
seems to me more like a statement rather than a question. .

Sure you could say this as a statement ""あなたは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっています." but it would sound more natural if you were to put a "よ" on the end. I am sure you will understand that leaving a statement open like that could also be interpreted as a question. However saying this would require a special situation to use it correctly and would not be used very often. Think about it who are you going to say to "that they know how to say this in Japanese" , definitely not a Japanese person I hope???
If you were to say in the third person "かれは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっている." That would be a phrase that would be more plausible.

>It seems a bit odd to me at first, but I bet native speakers would simply just say "kore, nihongo de nanto iu no/ndesuka?".

I could add to that an even more simpler form "これ、なんていうん？"。 There are many diderent ways to say something, but you have to look at the context of what is being said.

>the masu form can be considered to be a form of teineigo, or polite speech. And perhaps I shouldn't add the word formal since there really is not a direct corresponding category for that in Japanese. There used to be teineigo, kenjougo, sonkeigo, but now there apparently are 5 categories instead of 3.
Roughly speaking it maybe possible to categorize them as formal or informal, from the choice of words. It is informal simply because you can't write this down in a formal piece of writing. "shiru" is a casual (and basic) word, and in more formal situationis, that word can be replaced by the many other words that are similar.

There always have been these forms of speech, Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo which are the five that you speak of. And Don't worry I know all about these and how difficult they are to use ,as I have to try to teach my "Japanese" staff how to correctly use it. But what I was pointing out was that in your sentence "あなたはこれを日本語でなんという（んです）か知っあﾄます。" the （んです） is just plain wrong and should not be used. Yes you can roughly catergorise but what are you trying to say here "shiru" is a casual (and basic) word, and in more formal situations, that word can be replaced by the many other words that are similar"

 

[FrustratedDave]

For some reason, I would have put sitting in chairs looking out the window first but I don't know if that makes it any more natural or not. It becomes more like "In class, we speak and listen to Japanese while sitting looking out the window." Is there a compound verb for "speak and listen" or "listen and speak" by the way ?
Like "read and write" is 読み書き？
がっこうで（は）いすにすわって、まどのそとをみなが ら、日本語をはなし, ききます.

Elizabeth, I was trying to keep it as close to the posters sentence as possible to make it a little easier for him to understand.(I figured changing it around too much will cause confusion to the poster). I would not have put sit in chairs and the look out the window in the same sentence as listening and talking Japanese, the whole sentence ,it just sounds strange to me. But that is just me. No offense to the poster. You are right b/c your sentence sounds much more natural given the context of the sentence.

 

[genericdave]

Wow! Thanks everyone! This stuff is all very helpful. I don't have time to go through it all right now, but later I'll be taking a longer look.

Yes, I agree that my example sentences sound rather strange. I created them purely for the purpose of going past my current (rather limited) knowledge of how this stuff works.

>you know how to say it in Japanese
seems to me more like a statement rather than a question. .

Sure you could say this as a statement "あなたは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっています." but it would sound more natural if you were to put a "よ" on the end. I am sure you will understand that leaving a statement open like that could also be interpreted as a question.

Sorry, I should have given these things more context. The situation I was imagining when I put "you know how to say it in Japanese" down, was if my classmate gave up on his Japanese in class and just started saying something in English. At that point I would say something to the effect of "Oh come on, you know how to say it in Japanese (don't you?)." Hopefully that clears up a couple things.

Ergh. Gotta go. Thanks again!

 

[nhk9]

Sure you could say this as a statement ""あなたは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっていますよ." but it would sound more natural if you were to put a "よ" on the end. I am sure you will understand that leaving a statement open like that could also be interpreted as a question. However saying this would require a special situation to use it correctly and would not be used very often. Think about it who are you going to say to "that they know how to say this in Japanese" , deffinately not a Japanese person I hope???
If you were to say in the third person "かれは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっている." That would be a phrase that would be more plausable.
I could add to that an even more simpler form "これ、なんていうん？"。 There are many diderent ways to say something, but you have to look at the context of what is being said.
There always have been these forms of speech, Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo which are the five that you speak of. And Don't worry I know all about these and how difficult they are to use ,as I have to try to teach my "Japanese" staff how to correctly use it. But what I was pointing out was that in your sentence "あなたはこれを日本語でなんという（んです）か知ってます。" the （んです） is just plain wrong and should not be used. Yes you can roughly catergorise but what are you trying to say here "shiru" is a casual (and basic) word, and in more formal situationis, that word can be replaced by the many other words that are similar"

Regarding the あなたはこれを日本語でなんという（んです）か知ってます。 issue, I agree that you are plain right in your view. You can tell that it was written by someone who was on a rush eh? Thankfully I managed to put it within parentheses, which denotes that one can do without it and still sound logical.

During translation, I tend to stick with a more literal translation of what is asked to be translated, since what's natural can be subjective. It really depends on your method and style of translating. "あなたは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっていますよ" with the よ has the nuance that the speaker either confirming something that the listener already knows, or is telling the listener that you can/have the ability to know that you know how to say it in Japanese, as if the listener didn't know this already. Adding "yo" would also hint that the speaker already knows much about the listener's ability in Japanese

The first poster asks a translation of "you know how to say it in Japanese." Note the period at the back. あなたは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっていますよ with the "yo" would be more like "you know how to say it in Japanese!" As far as I can see, there is no such nuance in "you know how to say it in Japanese."

Think about it who are you going to say to "that they know how to say this in Japanese" , deffinately not a Japanese person I hope???

If the person whom you are asking is a Japanese speaking friend, perhaps you can use "これをなんというか知ってるんじゃないか。" I am sure the senseis here will correctly me if I am wrong. But this discussion is already digressing from the poster's original intention, since apparently "you know how to say it in Japanese." is a statement, not a question.

the masu form can be considered to be a form of teineigo, or polite speech. And perhaps I shouldn't add the word formal since there really is not a direct corresponding category for that in Japanese. There used to be teineigo, kenjougo, sonkeigo, but now there apparently are 5 categories instead of 3.

There always have been these forms of speech, Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo which are the five that you speak of. And Don't worry I know all about these and how difficult they are to use ,as I have to try to teach my "Japanese" staff how to correctly use it. But what I was pointing out was that in your sentence

"Keigo" cannot be mentioned in the breadth as kenjougo and sonkeigo etc., since kenjougo and sonkeigo are really subcategories of keigo. Also, "kenjyougo" and "kensongo" are exactly the same thing, so it is impossible to list them together as if they are two different entities.

The five that I was referring to are: teineigo, sonkeigo, kenjougo, bikago, and teichougo. A site that you and the staff to whom you are teaching may find useful is: 敬語 - Wikipedia (in Japanese) under the section called "日本語における敬語表現". I wouldn't say that you are plain wrong, since, yes, wikipedia is not necessarily the ultimate authority on this matter, and may not be correct, if at all; but I'd be interested to read an article that explains your list of "Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo".

 

[undrentide]

Sorry, I should have given these things more context. The situation I was imagining when I put "you know how to say it in Japanese" down, was if my classmate gave up on his Japanese in class and just started saying something in English. At that point I would say something to the effect of "Oh come on, you know how to say it in Japanese (don't you?)." Hopefully that clears up a couple things.

In that case, I would add よね、でしょう、just for example.
これ、日本語でなんていうか知ってますよね。
これ、日本語でなんていうか知ってるでしょう。
これ、日本語でなんていうか知ってるでしょ。
これ、日本語でなんていうか知ってるだろ。
これ、日本語でなんていうか知ってるよね。

 

[Elizabeth]

Sorry I am in a hurry but I will try to help with some questions.

There are many ways of linking verbs, depending on how the verbs are related. In your case, you can use the -tari -tari suru form, since you are listing verbs that are of similar importance, with no attention on the sequence of the verbs. Sometimes you can just use the -te form. More advanced students may use "nari" form, etc.

Well, mostly. But there are definately times in informal writing to give attention to and emphasize each verb independently -Te structures are also there for concurrent actions. If the context supports it as in 話して、聞いて it sounds fine. I just thought that pattern didn't flow very nice at the end of the OP's れいぶん.

So feel free to say おちをのんで、すしをたべます or whatever you're enjoying for lunch as one example. It's obvious that drinking tea and eating sushi aren't necessarily happening together but it's a situation where sequencing is less normal, so they very well could be.

 

[nhk9]

Wow! Thanks everyone! This stuff is all very helpful. I don't have time to go through it all right now, but later I'll be taking a longer look.

Yes, I agree that my example sentences sound rather strange. I created them purely for the purpose of going past my current (rather limited) knowledge of how this stuff works.

Sorry, I should have given these things more context. The situation I was imagining when I put "you know how to say it in Japanese" down, was if my classmate gave up on his Japanese in class and just started saying something in English. At that point I would say something to the effect of "Oh come on, you know how to say it in Japanese (don't you?)." Hopefully that clears up a couple things.

Ergh. Gotta go. Thanks again!

Thanks for clarifying things up In that case one possible way is just to say "（ね、あんたさ、）これ日本語でなんと言うか知ってるだろう"

 

[Elizabeth]

(今までに ) 日本語で こういう言い方を 知ってますよね。

(By now), you know that expression in Japanese, don't you ?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Sorry, I should have given these things more context. The situation I was imagining when I put "you know how to say it in Japanese" down, was if my classmate gave up on his Japanese in class and just started saying something in English. At that point I would say something to the effect of "Oh come on, you know how to say it in Japanese (don't you?)." Hopefully that clears up a couple things.

Ergh. Gotta go. Thanks again!

If that is the case you could also say this
"これは にほんごで はなせるでしょう。"
"これは にほんごで いえるでしょう。"
"これは にほんごで しっているでしょう"
And one last one. "これは にほんごで ひょうげん できるでしょ� ､。"
What I get is that you are trying to encourage your friend right?

During translation, I tend to stick with a more literal translation of what is asked to be translated, since what's natural can be subjective. It really depends on your method and style of translating. "� なたはこれを にほんごで なんていうか しって� ｢ますよ" with the よ has the nuance that the speaker either confirming something that the listener already knows, or is telling the listener that you can/have the ability to know that you know how to say it in Japanese, as if the listener didn't know this already. Adding "yo" would also hint that the speaker already knows much about the listener's ability in Japanese.

That is my point, anything can be literally translated, but what good is it going to do you in the real world? You say subjective, but there are things you can and can not say in any language.
Eg, "� なたはこれを にほんごで なんというか しって� ｢ます。" Sure it can be translated and understood, but who is going to use a sentence like that? Remember "直訳" is not your friend.
Maybe I read too much into what the poster was trying to say and assumed that he was actually wanting to ask how to say something in Japanese, but I could not picture a situation where that particular sentence would be used in the real world.

I know so many Japanese that have a better understanding of English grammar than I do, but they could not speak a complete sentence to save their lives. It is this text book mentality that holds people back, they get to caught up in the grammar side of things and consequently they suffer in speaking sideﾂ。This also applies to people learning Japanese too.

...There used to be teineigo, kenjougo, sonkeigo, but now there apparently are 5 categories instead of 3......

"Keigo" cannot be mentioned in the breadth as kenjougo and sonkeigo etc., since kenjougo and sonkeigo are really subcategories of keigo. Also, "kenjyougo" and "kensongo" are exactly the same thing, so it is impossible to list them together as if they are two different entities.

There always have been these forms of speech, Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo which are the five that you speak of.

That was a typo, I was meaning to put a ? at the end of that sentence to imply a question, why? B/c there has always been these teineigo, sonkeigo and kenjougo, but I have never heard of there being five different forms of "keigo" and the extra two that you were refering to "bikago and teichougo", I think you will find that most Japanese will not know either. Going of that page, it was written this year in February?

 

[tanhql]

the english wiki also have it Japanese honorifics - Wikipedia

Honorifics in Japanese are broadly referred to as keigo (敬語, literally "respectful language"), and fall under three main categories: sonkeigo (尊敬語), respectful language; kensongo (謙遜語) or kenjōgo (謙譲語), humble language; and teineigo (丁寧語), polite language. Linguistically, the former two are referent honorifics, used for someone being talked about, and the last is an addressee honorific, used for someone being talked to. Sometimes two more categories are also used: teichōgo (丁重語) and bikago (美化語), "word beautification". Each type of speech has its own vocabulary and verb endings.

 

[genericdave]

Alright, so by now I've realized the incredible err of my ways when I posted this:

わたしたちは クラスで にほんごを きいて はなし て、 いすに すわって そとに みます

I was pushing my boundaries to the point where even I could tell that it wasn't natural in the slightest. I really should be focusing on learning natural Japanese, as opposed to trying to formulate insane word mashings. Now I realized that this kind of thing would be better with the -tari -tari suru form.

I am not sure if this is what you are meaning ,but you can do this,
"たべることが できる。"

Very nice, I wasn't so far off on this one. While this post is getting long enough as it is, I can't help but ask what the difference between "たべることが できる" and "たべられます" is. I've read a bit about the second form and I find it a bit strange.

If that is the case you could also say this
"これは にほんごで はなせるでしょう。"
"これは にほんごで いえるでしょう。"
"これは にほんごで しっているでしょう"
And one last one. "これは にほんごで ひょうげん できるでしょ� E ､。"
What I get is that you are trying to encourage your friend right?

That's more along the lines that I was thinking. Just a simple encouragement. Nothing too complicated.

I know so many Japanese that have a better understanding of English grammar than I do, but they could not speak a complete sentence to save their lives. It is this text book mentality that holds people back, they get to caught up in the grammar side of things and consequently they suffer in speaking side。This also applies to people learning Japanese too.

I wholeheartedly agree. Although I'm still at a point where grammar is my main focus (only been studying for 2 months or so) I should definitely be keeping my focus on the real language, not the grammar.

I have to thank everyone for taking the time to help me with this stuff. I expected a reply or two, but this is incredible! I'll be sure to stop here first when I'm in over my head.

 

[Elizabeth]

Alright, so by now I've realized the incredible err of my ways when I posted this:

I was pushing my boundaries to the point where even I could tell that it wasn't natural in the slightest. I really should be focusing on learning natural Japanese, as opposed to trying to formulate insane word mashings. Now I realized that this kind of thing would be better with the -tari -tari suru form.

Would you end a sentence in English "We do things in class like speaking and listening to Japanese..." "We speak and listen to Japanese and so on..." ? Unless you were being incredibly casual....?

I realize a literal translation doesn't really apply since など、たり are used more in Japanese than English but -tari -tari still sounds a bit off in this sentence for the same reason. Because it implies that those are only the type of activities which took place. From the context, it reads like speaking and listening are two of several (or other)things that are similar but for some reason going unnamed.

In this case, I can only assume writing and reading Japanese are left out and to avoid confusion, vagueness, etc. are different enough in kind in my opinion to be named independently.

Which is why I suggested はなし、ききます(stem of the -ます form) used to connect verbs and verb phrases in more formal writing. The て pattern isn't necessarily wrong as much as it emphasizes speaking and writing each separately, while with し they flow more smoothly or naturally together as a whole.

 

[Elizabeth]

Very nice, I wasn't so far off on this one. While this post is getting long enough as it is, I can't help but ask what the difference between "たべることが できる" and "たべられます" is. I've read a bit about the second form and I find it a bit strange.

There's no difference in meaning. What have you read that would possibly make it appear strange ? ☝

But could I also do:
たべることが すきです。
If I was using a verb instead of すき would both of these be okay?

Depends on the verb.