itte iru

[nekocat]

But that is only to avoid confusion in ordinary conversation, right ? In the case a speaker cannot have knowledge of whether the movement is ongoing or has concluded (whether the plane has landed or not) 中国に行っている I think is not incorrect.

Yes, I support your opinion: to avoid confusion people came to prefer one usage to another.
It should be one of the most difficult parts of leaning Japanese. Your understanding of Japanese is indeed deep!

 

[cacawate]

A little internet Flash movie or something needs to be made about this, because I know that a lot of EFL people have trouble understanding this.

I think the train situation is perfect as well. You can have a person talking on the phone with one of their friends and telling them exactly what they are doing. You could pull from undrentide's examples verbatim and that would be good enough.

I'm going to see if I can round up some people that may be interested in doing this. This needs to be done. :/

 

[Elizabeth]

I've hardly ever seen such an insightful discussion as the one between Elizabeth and undrentide!
"itteimasu" can be ambiguous ("completion" or "progressive"), so people must avoid using "itteimasu" when they want to clearly mean they are in the middle of doing it, not wanting to make it sound as if it were a completed action.

（携帯電話で、洋子は電車の中、ひろしは家）
ひろし：いま何してんの？
洋子：いま学校に行ってるところ。（行っているところ/行っている途中）。​

In this sentence, 洋子 doesn't want ひろし to think that she has already gone/been to the school.

Perhaps you would say 行ってるところ emphasizes being in the middle （移動中であれば） and 行くところ could be just starting out or also on the way....Just wondering, though, isn't 行くところ a much more common way of expressing the act of going as it is still underway ?

 

[Glenn]

I was under the impression that it meant you were about to go. Like someone calls your house phone, and they ask what you're doing, and you say 買い物に行くところだ（った）.

 

[Elizabeth]

I was under the impression that it meant you were about to go. Like someone calls your house phone, and they ask what you're doing, and you say 買い物に行くところだ（った）.

ちょうど買い物に出かけようとしている(ところ） or でかけるところ etc are both fine before starting out, but like commuting to or from on the train and talking to people around you 行く・かえるところ I think are also more natural than 行っているところ、帰っているところ。

Maybe the progressive + ところ works on a cell phone or whatever to a partner, though, that doesn't know your location and present situation...?? :?

 

[undrentide]

ちょうど買い物に出かけようとしている(出かけようというところ？） or でかけるところ are both fine before starting out, but like commuting to or from on the train and talking to people around you 行く・かえるところ I think are also more natural than 行っているところ、帰っているところ。

Maybe the progressive + ところ works on a cell phone or whatever to a partner, though, that doesn't know your location and present situation...?? :?

行くところ could mean either about to go somewhere (has not left yet) or is going to somewhere (already on the way).
It might sound vague, but what is common for both meaning is the action of "going" has not completed yet.

Personally I never use 行っている to express I myself am on the way, as it sounds very unnatural and strange. But it could be just me who feels that way...


When I want to express that I'm on the way, I would say
～に行く途中なの
while I have not started yet but am about to leave for somewhere, I would say
今（これから）～に行くところ
～に行こうとしてたところ

 

[Supervin]

行くところ could mean either about to go somewhere (has not left yet) or is going to somewhere (already on the way).
...
When I want to express that I'm on the way, I would say
～に行く途中なの
while I have not started yet but am about to leave for somewhere, I would say
今（これから）～に行くところ
～に行こうとしてたところ

So then, as I see it ところ is used to express that you're just about to do something.

Are there other alternatives apart from 途中 to express being in the midst of doing something?

 

[Elizabeth]

So then, as I see it ところ is used to express that you're just about to do something.
Are there other alternatives apart from 途中 to express being in the midst of doing something?

She said it already. Bottom of the Page 1 :

If I'm already on the train and heading for school, I would say
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"
"gakkou ni iku tochuu desu"

 

[Supervin]

She said it already. Bottom of the Page 1 :
If I'm already on the train and heading for school, I would say
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"
"gakkou ni iku tochuu desu"

Ah, cheers.

Those seem to be the common ones. Are there any more ways?

 

[Elizabeth]

Ah, cheers.
Those seem to be the common ones. Are there any more ways?

You mean with 行く？ Depending on the noun and verb, there are other ways certainly. In the middle of an activity ＝ noun (often the type attached to suru) + ～中、の最中、; In the middle of investigating this problem = この問題を調べているところです。。。

To take an example that was already brought up, though, the train is going to stop and has already started decelerating :

電車が止まる

The train is in the middle of stopping or about to stop, (from my dictionary but not used in everyday language...) :

電車が止まりかけている
電車が止まりつつある
電車が止まろうとしている（ところ？）

電車が止まるところ（？）

 

[tanhql]

can you say 電車が止まって来た?

i think most of this ambiguity comes from the progressive intransitive verbs.

 

[undrentide]

can you say 電車が止まって来た?

i think most of this ambiguity comes from the progressive intransitive verbs.

Since 止まる is not a progressive action (it can either moving or stop), 止まってきた does not sound right.

All the good examples Elizabeth listed up are describing that the train is about to stop (but has not stopped yet).

 

[nekocat]

母はもう買い物に行っています。 (Mother has already gone shopping.)

Possible English interpretations:

1. "Mother has already shopped (but has not yet returned.)" OR "Mother has already gone shopping, (perhaps days ago, for the week) and returned."
2. "Mother has just left to go shopping and is expected to still be on the way."

What a coincidence! Japanese, too, allows for exactly the same two interpretations. 言語って共通なところも多いのね。

 

[nekocat]

If I'm still waiting for the train, or am just about to leave home for school, then I might say
"korekara gakkou e ikimasu"
"imakara gakkou e ikimasu"
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"

If I'm already on the train and heading for school, I would say
"gakkou e ikutokoro desu"
"gakkou ni iku tochuu desu"

but never, ever say
"gakkou e itteimasu"

Still we could say it for 3rd person.
彼女は卵をとりにいっています。

 

[undrentide]

Still we could say it for 3rd person.
彼女は卵をとりにいっています。

Yes, I do agree with that.
Maybe I was not clear enough in each posts I made here, but I've been talking about specifically when refering it to myself.

 

[Elizabeth]

What a coincidence! Japanese, too, allows for exactly the same two interpretations. 言語って共通なところも多いのね。

そうですね。言語間の類似は相違より顕著ですね。

But I still have a lot of problems in Japanese speaking of the future from a point of view in the past and specifically with a pattern like "would have (gone)" (仮定法過去形）which is why I'm including it in this thread. I'm not really good at grammar terms either but I checked the dictionary and think it's the subjunctive past in English.



That said, here though are my best guesses for two which I hope are still halfway understandable.

彼らの忠告がなかったら、私は行っていただろう。(行っていたでしょう？)

If it weren't for your advice, I would have gone.


あんなにつまらない旅行になると分かっていたら、行かなかっただろう。

If I had known the trip would be so boring, I wouldn't have gone.

Not 行かなくっていたらだろう？ :?

 

[nekocat]

You're Japanese sentences are natural Liz,

だろう and でしょう are the same, different just in the politeness level. Both are ["would have -p.p." and copula].

彼らの: their (I'm sure it's just you being careless)

行かなくっていたらだろう: wrong. イ音便化します。
→行かないでいたら

 

[nekocat]

行くところ could mean either about to go somewhere (has not left yet) or is going to somewhere (already on the way).
It might sound vague, but what is common for both meaning is the action of "going" has not completed yet.

Good analysis! That would be because the verb 行く includes both aspects: one in which 行く is similar in meaning to that of 着く (to reach). One in which 行く is the action of going itself. The former is a perfective verb, whearas the latter is a non-perfective verb (just like Slavic languages). Some types of Japanese verbs comprise both these aspects in one verb.

Personally I never use 行っている to express I myself am on the way, as it sounds very unnatural and strange. But it could be just me who feels that way...

Wow I disagree on this point. It's very natural to me, though I'd dop "い" and say 行ってる。

When I want to express that I'm on the way, I would say
～に行く途中なの
while I have not started yet but am about to leave for somewhere, I would say
今（これから）～に行くところ
～に行こうとしてたところ

 

[Elizabeth]

You're Japanese sentences are natural Liz,

だろう and でしょう are the same, different just in the politeness level. Both are ["would have -p.p." and copula].

I see. After encountering だろう (ろうに。。) used with "if-clauses" so overwhelmingly, even in dictionary examples intermixed with polite sentences, I just thought there might be something else going on.

彼らの: their (I'm sure it's just you being careless)

行かなくっていたらだろう: wrong. イ音便化します。
→行かないでいたら

Just being sleepy is more like it. Same with 行かなくっていたらだろう。What I was trying to ask was 行かなくっていただろう。 This doesn't sound correct though in cases where the action did actually take place (did go without knowing it would end up so boring).

Thanks again for the help !

 

[Elizabeth]

Wow I disagree on this point. It's very natural to me, though I'd dop "い" and say 行ってる。

I want to make sure I understand. You're saying if you're on the way to school you would say 「私は、学校に行ってる」 ?

Of course the grammar is no problem, I always thought it was the meaning that changes, though. So it would end up in English that you're 「私は、学生です」。 In other words, "attending school" or "going to school" habitually (as an everyday action)....Am I wrong in that ?

 

[nekocat]

I want to make sure I understand. You're saying if you're on the way to school you would say 「私は、学校に行ってる」 ?

Yes, that's right.

Of course the grammar is no problem, I always thought it was the meaning that changes, though. So it would end up in English that you're 「私は、学生です」。 In other words, "attending school" or "going to school" habitually (as an everyday action)....Am I wrong in that ?

All of the above. The meanings depend on the situation.

...行かなくっていただろう。​

This is again incorrect. You should say,

...行かないでいただろう。​

 

[undrentide]

I want to make sure I understand. You're saying if you're on the way to school you would say 「私は、学校に行ってる」 ?

Yes, that's right.

Ah, this is the point I cannot agree with nekocat san...

Normally I do use ～ている to describe something ongoing/in process, but 行く and 来る are two exceptions.

If I say 私は学校に行っている, it means either
- repeated action (e.g. 私は毎週学校に行っています。）
- the result of the action (e.g. 私は午前中は学校に行っています。＝ だから家にはいません。）

But I would never say
私は学校に行っています
when I'm on the way to schoo and someone called me on the mobile and ask me where I'm now/what I'm doing at the right moment.
If I do, it sounds so weired to me because it sounds I've gone to school and not here yet I am here talking... Somehow with 行っている／来ている, I cannot really feel the action of 行く／来る is in progress*. It is very different from other verbs.

I asked a few friends of mine and they said they wouldn't use 行っている （nor 行ってる） when they're on the way to somewhere.

I'm wondering if there's regional difference in this usage...

[*] Note: it is totally different story when it is combined with adjective, not simple actions of "to go" or "to come".

 

[nekocat]

Ah, this is the point I cannot agree with nekocat san...
Normally I do use ～ている to describe something ongoing/in process, but 行く and 来る are two exceptions.
If I say 私は学校に行っている, it means either
- repeated action (e.g. 私は毎週学校に行っています。）
- the result of the action (e.g. 私は午前中は学校に行っています。＝ だから家にはいません。）
But I would never say
私は学校に行っています
when I'm on the way to schoo and someone called me on the mobile and ask me where I'm now/what I'm doing at the right moment.
If I do, it sounds so weired to me because it sounds I've gone to school and not here yet I am here talking... Somehow with 行っている／来ている, I cannot really feel the action of 行く／来る is in progress*. It is very different from other verbs.
I asked a few friends of mine and they said they wouldn't use 行っている （nor 行ってる） when they're on the way to somewhere.
I'm wondering if there's regional difference in this usage...

Could you tell me if the following 行ってる sounds wrong to you?
The idea behind 行く・来る is the same with the English distinction of "go/come." When the daughter says "今行ってる" the point of reference is at her mother. She is going away from the point, thus 行く.

母：（携帯電話で）今何してるの！学校行ったの？
娘：今行ってる！いちいち電話かけてこないで！​

[*] Note: it is totally different story when it is combined with adjective, not simple actions of "to go" or "to come".

Didn't you want to say "...when it's combined with 本動詞", not adjective?

 

[Elizabeth]

Could you tell me if the following 行ってる sounds wrong to you?
The idea behind 行く・来る is the same with the English distinction of "go/come." When the daughter says "今行ってる" the point of reference is at her mother. She is going away from the point, thus 行く.
母：（携帯電話で）今何してるの！学校行ったの？
娘：今行ってる！いちいち電話かけてこないで！

全然意味のないよ。。

This is again incorrect. You should say,

...行かないでいただろう。

ありがとうございます。

行かなかっただろう、行かないでいただろうどちらも正 しい日本語で、意味も同じですね。
でも、言い方としては、どちらが日常、普通につかわれ るかな。。。

 

[nekocat]

全然意味のないよ。。

どういう意味？

ありがとうございます。
行かなかっただろう、行かないでいただろうどちらも正 しい日本語で、意味も同じですね。
でも、言い方としては、どちらが日常、普通につかわれ るかな。。。

行かなかった: simple past
行かないでいた: remain in the state of "not going." （行かない状態のままいた）

文法的に違うよ。