Surely the meaning of 'gaijin' is contextual?!

[gaijinalways]

Good point, since the Internet has expanded in popularity, having discussions online in your native tongue is much easier than it was before. It is not always the same, but it is better than nothing and certainly allows access to many more people than you might meet where you live.

 

[caster51]

Hi there...i have been reading the posts about gaijin with interest, especially those which express the view that 'gaijin' is a pejorative term or not. let me suggest and ask for your comments about this: gaijin changes it's meaning depending on the context. firstly there is 'gaikokujin' and 'gaijin' : are these two words exactly the same in meaning and usage? to my way of thinking, 'gaijin' = westerner (white or black, though this may be questioned) not rarely asian background (is this true?), that is, a certain image is constructed when this word is uttered. but how about a gaikokujin nikutairoodoosha...this sounds to me that the person is not a stereotyped westerner teaching is a nova english conversation school but someone quite different. is the usage of either gaikokujin or gaijin disappearing in japan? or is it alive and healthy? are only non-japanese obsessed with gaijin? any views would be helpful...☝

Gaijin is a general term that means non Japanese.
in general ,Chinese, korean etc are not used as a gaijin though they are gaijin technically.
we tend to distingwish them. they are called exactly. recentry,they are called Toku-a(窶愿?但ﾂ、窶愿≫?凖ｨﾆ但ﾆ淡ﾆ但ﾂ） ppls
the person who is from middle east is "like Iranian-gaijin or meadl east-Kei(ﾅ地ﾂ）"
the white ppl is sometime called white-Gaijin-san because it does not know where they are from. USA ,EU or australia???
Black ppl is black ppl. it is not called gaijin though they are Gaijin technically.
because It is easy to distingwish.
However most Japanese does not call them Kokujin(black ppl)or Gaijin in front of them except in case of disclosing of your identity
it is as same as hakujin(white ppl). because maybe it feels it is not polite.
I think it is rare to called gaijin if their identity is well known.
However, in case of the "Japanese Vs foreigner " they are called Gaijin.
because they are not the JaPanese.
In the some discussion about Japanese culture, the japanese would say " you can not understand it because you are not Japanese " you dont kow at all, that is, Gaijin.
Or, " you are a Japanese more than native japanese".
sometimes I am said by my friend " you have a like Gaijin thought(I think it means "rational thought" "
in this case, chinese and korean are not incuded.
Gaijin-san (ms, Gaijin) is common more than just Gaijin.
until your identity is kown, it may be called like that in the place where you are not.
There is no discrimination in that at all.
anyway
if you introduce where you are from, you would not be calld a Gaijin in them.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

hmmm this is an interesting comment. i am sure that people in their host communities need to talk about them with others whom are like them ie same or similar nationality or at least another gaijin to compare notes and either ***** about japan or rave about it, even both. why does this message board even exist? i have wondered about this for a while. some theories of cross-cultural adaptation have mentioned ethnic mass communication as a way of offsetting too much culture shock too quickly. many of those theories didn't count on the internet being such a strong force, that is, one can go on line and 'be' back 'home'...

I wasn't entirely clear but I think I understood you to mean that perhaps this message board exists as a way for gaijin to communicate with one another and discuss things in their native tongue, something of increased importance for those who live in more remote regions? I'd wholeheartedly agree with this. For many people with many interests, some more obscure than others, the internet is a way to connect and share ideas. I would still wager however that the people on this website, being able to discuss their areas of interest fairly articulately and having a relatively high amont of experience with the culture, would not be the type to run up to another gaijin on the street (vs. opening a discussion online). I think that on-the-street gaijin 'needyness' is a funciton of the opposite, those who aren't yet adjusted and settled into their own Japanese experience and need others like themselves to feel more at ease, no matter how small the conversation or whatever.

 

[Glenski]

Gaijin-san (ms, Gaijin) is common more than just Gaijin.

I've never heard that term in the 9 years I've lived here, nor in the 5 months I lived here back in 1985.

 

[caster51]

I've never heard that term in the 9 years I've lived here, nor in the 5 months I lived here back in 1985

nobody calls Gaigin or gaijin-san like " hey Gaijin" to you directly except kid.


「外人さん」の検索結果 - Yahoo!検索

 

[KirinMan]

nobody calls Gaigin or gaijin-san like " hey Gaijin" to you directly except kid.

Caster sure kids use it often, and I agree with Glenski that in all my years here I have never heard a Japanese person call me "Mr. Gaijin" either.

I would agree with you that the Japanese will not say "Hey Gaijin" but and it really isnt that uncommon to hear adults use the term "Gaijin" or "Gaijin-san" when speaking to me.

It happens more often than you may think, I am probably more attuned to it than you would be, not out of disrespect to you but you have to admit I am the "gaijin" here and not you.

I hear the question "Gaijin-san desuka?" quite often.

 

[Glenski]

I hear the question "Gaijin-san desuka?" quite often.

And, of course, you answer..."nope. Gaikokujin desu." Right?

 

[KirinMan]

And, of course, you answer..."nope. Gaikokujin desu." Right?

yes and occasionally when the "feeling" comes over me I say USA-jin desu.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Usually when I hear "gaijin-san", it's in the third person.

 

[William Spencer]

I've never heard that term in the 9 years I've lived here, nor in the 5 months I lived here back in 1985.

In Kariya Tetsu's manga 'Oishinbo' Toofu-hen, after having an argument in a tofu shop regarding the quality of the tofu being served (the complaint was from a foreigner called Henry James Black who, in the story, has written a book about tofu [as an aside this character of Henry Black refers to an Australian by the same name who went to Japan during Meiji and became a famous rakugoka] the protagonists visit a tofu shop which Yamaoka (the young newspaper man who writes about food) knows.

page 22
when Henry introduces himself: Henrii Burakku desu. Yoroshiku
Tofu shop lady replies: Ara, gaijin-san made!

what is needed is a corpus of actual japanese conversation to determine how the words gaijin and gaikokujin are actually used in situ. then again how much do japanese people actually talk about gaijin? surely they have better things to discuss?! is it only gaijin who are obsessed with being gaijin and being named gaijin...it'll be good for me to return to japan in terms of being a nobody here in australia (oh okay a citizen!) and at the point of crossing the yellow line at immigration onto japanese soil i transform into gaijin (yippy)...seems like that cartoon series Charisma Man with which some of you may be familar.

what superpower(s) do gaijin have?

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I could have sworn you stated that you were gay William, let me remind you that you can only be Charisma-man if you suddenly start getting hotter chicks than you would in your home country. You're automatically disqualified my friend

All joking aside, I think gaijins think about 'gaijin-ness' and 'gaijin-hood' far more than nihonjin do. If you briefly consider your usage of the word 'immigrant' or what have you, it's used pretty effortlessly depending on the situation. To be more politically correct, you or a politician may also refer to them as 'newcomers'. And of course there are more derogatory terms but lets keep it simple. Perhaps somewhere, someone we would consider a foreigner is debating the usage of these two words, immigrant and newcomer, and trying to determine what the underlying philosophies and meanings are. Meanwhile, we don't really assign too much thought to the whole thing unless its a matter of not appearing too brash when part of a liberally minded crowd or conversely when swearing at a cab driver or something.

Perhaps Westerners, fed by a few real life experiences and moreso a large amount of urban myth regarding the gaijin mystique believe nihonjin somehow find more time to think about the issue than we do. Japan receives a large amount of popculture injection and perhaps its easy to mistake this fanfare for actual interest in all foreigners.

 

[Glenski]

William, William, William,
For shame! Using a manga to try making a point!? Let's at least stick to real life, ok?

then again how much do japanese people actually talk about gaijin? surely they have better things to discuss?!

Tongue in cheek, I could argue that, "What? Aren't we good enough to discuss?" Seriously, though, we foreigners are a hot topic everywhere. It just depends on the situation.

I've had clients phone taxi companies to pick me up, and I overheard them refer to me as "gaijin", but never to my face.

Superpowers? Unless you are talking about the fact that sometimes we are allowed to get out of some situations simply because we are not Japanese, I don't see as we have ANY superpowers.

Example:
I learned at 5pm that my HS was scheduled to have an event which all teachers had to attend. Everyone else knew beforehand because of announcements made in Japanese (which I couldn't read). If I'd been Japanese and simply not read my mail, I'd still be obligated to go. As it was, I was told, "It's ok. You can skip out."

 

[KirinMan]

I've had clients phone taxi companies to pick me up, and I overheard them refer to me as "gaijin", but never to my face.

Do you think that maybe they used the word "gaijin" to make it easier for the taxi driver to pick you out from a crowd as opposed to any overt discrimination?

 

[gaijinalways]

That's a possibility. I always tell people I'm a giant gaijin and they can find me immediately. But then again, it's Saturday night in Roppongi, and is that description going to help? Maybe not.

 

[William Spencer]

I could have sworn you stated that you were gay William, let me remind you that you can only be Charisma-man if you suddenly start getting hotter chicks than you would in your home country. You're automatically disqualified my friend

hmmm while i can see the truth in this comment regarding charisma man and his sexual orientention, there are overlaps in terms of a transformation of sorts, even with gay men (god forbid). the charisma man thing seems important here since his weakeness is being 'seen' by western women who view him as a loser geek (which he appears to be and he's also canadian. i am not certain whether they go together? that's the author who made him canadian not me!). the point is that when another gaijin 'sees' me then my superhero status is exposed and i am reduced to something else. i may have created that status in my head as delusion. granted this being ascribed status based on gaijinness may have changed greatly over the last 20-30 years (are (white) gaijin still treated as special in japan? and if yes, then what does that say about japanese society?).

William, William, William,
For shame! Using a manga to try making a point!? Let's at least stick to real life, ok?

hmmm that manga is an authentic japanese text written by a japanese national. it take it as a representation of 'real life'.

Seriously, though, we foreigners are a hot topic everywhere. It just depends on the situation.

more on this please...what kind of situations?

 

[KirinMan]

hmmm that manga is an authentic japanese text written by a japanese national. it take it as a representation of 'real life'.

Mmm I was following along on this thread with interest but this line I really hope you clarify, if you actually think this is true then I think that you have a serious problem here about perception of the culture and people.

Using your logic here then I could say that "The Fantastic Four", "Spiderman", "The Hulk" or "Superman" are authentic American text written by an American national and are representative of "real life" in the US as well, which of course you know is a bunch of nightshade.

 

[Glenski]

william Spencer wrote:

hmmm that manga is an authentic japanese text written by a japanese national. it take it as a representation of 'real life'.

And language you see in comic books in your homeland show exactly the language people use on the street? I think not.

how much do japanese people actually talk about gaijin? surely they have better things to discuss?!

Tongue in cheek, I could argue that, "What? Aren't we good enough to discuss?" Seriously, though, we foreigners are a hot topic everywhere. It just depends on the situation.
more on this please...what kind of situations?

Everything, William! The more racist Japanese will talk about us in every light there is, from our cooking habits (and how our food smells so bad we are sometimes not allowed to rent apartments), to wanting every US military person out of Japan. Others will talk about us in a business sense, from doing business with us overseas or locally, to hiring and discriminating against us as (for example) teachers. Ga-ga J girls will talk about foreigners in their own way, from boyfriend awe and show pieces to how "gentlemanly" some of us seem to be, to various sexual escapades, all compared to J men. Simply put, since we represent about 2% of the population here, and we usually stand out physically from the other 98%, we are noticed and talked about.

 

[gaijinalways]

'Nightshade', gotta love it!

i may have created that status in my head as delusion. granted this being ascribed status based on gaijinness may have changed greatly over the last 20-30 years (are (white) gaijin still treated as special in japan? and if yes, then what does that say about japanese society?).

Some people claim yes, that it is still true to some extent. It still applies with some people who run schools and study, as some will reject teachers who do not have blue eyes and blond hair (get out the hair dye!). As for dating, depends on the women, for some the 'flavor of the month syndrome' runs more to Japanese.

I find sometimes the special treatment is broadly applied as long as you don't look Asian, especially similar to Japanese (could be Korean or Chinese). Darker skinned Asians get special treatment, but this usually means they are treated to definately third class rather than the 2nd class treatment 'white' foreigners get most of the time.

 

[William Spencer]

A new thread being in the making?

william Spencer wrote:
And language you see in comic books in your homeland show exactly the language people use on the street? I think not.

i posed a question in the anime&manga section of this forum about the ways that manga japanese are different from spoken japanese. i got a few responses but nothing really earth shattering. my take on manga language is that it is a variation of japanese and with oishinbo e.g. the genre is akin to 'real' life like say that of a soap opera or hoomu dorama (i have just watch yamatonadeshiko and i am sure that no would argue that that hoomu dorama is 'real' life!). the question then is, what is authentic? like in i gave my students an authentic text. what makes manga japanese less authentic than say an nhk news reader's spoken japanese? it's a totally new thread this btw.

 

[William Spencer]

Simply put, since we represent about 2% of the population here, and we usually stand out physically from the other 98%, we are noticed and talked about.

yes only 2% of the population! and therefore there is that visual element...anout out of that 2% there are fewer who stand out...it's that standing out (not outstanding) which could be the key: an obvious one given skin colour, size, smell (it seems???)...

so is there anything else to say about this topic? i'll contribute more on the language thing once we have had a few responses if any.

☝

 

[KirinMan]

my take on manga language is that it is a variation of japanese and with oishinbo e.g. the genre is akin to 'real' life like say that of a soap opera or hoomu dorama (i have just watch yamatonadeshiko and i am sure that no would argue that that hoomu dorama is 'real' life!).

I'm sorry but to me at it sounds that you are packpeddling from your earlier statement claiming "that manga is an authentic japanese text written by a japanese national. it take it as a representation of 'real life'. "

anout out of that 2% there are fewer who stand out..

How's that? I stand out like a 6 foot sunflower in an ocean of green grass. Sure it's "visual" and for all the "other" gaijin here that do not have oriental features we all stick out whether or not they stand literally head and shoulders above everyone else. It's just a fact of life while living here. If one can't handle that, then I might suggest that this isnt the country for them to be living in.

I find sometimes the special treatment is broadly applied as long as you don't look Asian, especially similar to Japanese

I agree with this, there are times that expectations are different, not better nor worse, just different.

'Nightshade', gotta love it!

 

[William Spencer]

If 2% of the population are non-japanese then out of those 2% many will be non-white/black. i wonder what the actual % is of koreans chinese other 'asians' brazilian japanese there are in japan (i have the 2001 census fugures somewhere). in terms of being white/black there will be even a greater chance of being seen despite that whites and blacks make up such a small % of the gaijin population and the population in total.

not backpeddling. the claim is that manga japanese is merely one example of japanese and that manga, like hoomu dorama, is a representation of japanese society. may be the question isn't 'what is real or authentic? but how do we see something as real or authentic? when a tourist brochure says 'come experience the real japan', what does that mean? kyoto is not the same as naha which is not the same as hakodate, therefore 'real' is a myth.

 

[KirinMan]

when a tourist brochure says 'come experience the real japan', what does that mean? kyoto is not the same as naha which is not the same as hakodate, therefore 'real' is a myth.

I disagree to a point, the "real Japan" to each of course is different but in the context of the example that use use here I can or do get the impression that they are advertising the "history" and "culture" of "old" Japan and not the city life that can be found in just about any other major country in the world.

For me at least Tokyo nor Osaka are fair representations of what Japan is, neither is London, Paris, New York or LA to those repsective countries either.

To me at least "real" is not a myth but actual fact.

 

[gaijinalways]

Sounds like maybe you are saying that city life is not real life, or at least not a 'normal' representation of such. I would argue that it is different, but that city life is a real type of culture. True, some aspects of city life seem similar in many countries; chain stores, brand name clothing, etc., but it is only a surface aspect. Scratch a little below that and you'll see plenty of local culture.

 

[KirinMan]

Sounds like maybe you are saying that city life is not real life, or at least not a 'normal' representation of such. I would argue that it is different, but that city life is a real type of culture. True, some aspects of city life seem similar in many countries; chain stores, brand name clothing, etc., but it is only a surface aspect. Scratch a little below that and you'll see plenty of local culture.

I agree with you here too, I was refering to the use of the term "real" in respect to the example William made, from a tourist brochure.

In my opinion getting away from the metropolitan areas of many major countries, including Japan, is a better way to experience the culture.