Oda Nobunaga's Unrealized Dream: Domination of Asia
- Thread starter Mikawa Ossan
- Start date
In general, I always take the point of view that it's pretty dicey to analyze what is a historical person's intention. Unless we have primary sources, it's basically conjecture and interpretation. Conjecture and interpretation can be a lot of fun in a "what if" kind of discussion. But the problem is when it becomes the basis for further conclusions - or worse, arguments & disagreements.GodEmperorLeto said:
I don't think any of us can really say - or disagree with someone else who says - what Nobunaga's intentions for Asia were. So far in this thread we basically have seen a causal reference to Frois describing what he say as Nobunaga's intent - but that's not very convincing.
I'm not sure how 'popular' this supposedly 'popular perception' of Nobunaga is. You basically see this evil bad guy portfolio in a fwe computer games and anime shows/movies, as GodEmperorLeto refers to. In general - and certainly in serious history - Nobunaga is not portrayed in that kind of light.GodEmperorLeto said:
Oyakata
www.odanobunaga.com
http://www.satoshi-nitta.com/nobunaga.htm
however I think the origin of japanese culture was made at edo era because of national isolation
http://www.iiclo.or.jp/100books/1946/htm/050main.htm
however I think the origin of japanese culture was made at edo era because of national isolation
.
http://www.iiclo.or.jp/100books/1946/htm/050main.htm
- 4 Jun 2006
- 561
- 39
This is one of the reasons Alexander the Great is so enigmatic.Oyakata said:
Well, he spearheaded military reform, for one thing. Especially along more Western lines. The use of muskets, massed volleys, and other firearms techniques were not only adopted from the Europeans, but in some areas greatly improved upon (like waxed paper covers allowing their matchlock muskets to fire in the rain). Oda Nobunaga 's armies in the field wouldn't just outnumber, but probably also outfight and outmanuever the combined armies of the English Civil War, around the same time period.
If this doesn't encourage some that he intended to modernize Japan, I'm not sure what will. However, nobody can really say what he intended for Asia or any of his other neighbors. I, personally, think he wanted to modernize Japan and jump into the global milieu with the Europeans. I figure he thought there was no reason Japan couldn't be doing all the travel, trade, and exploration they were.
Then again, this isn't my area of expertise, so much of the information I have about the Sengoku Jidai is mostly broad generalizations with only a few finer details.
You can see how he is popularly viewed even through a popular poem (which I'll probably botch):
Oda Nobunaga says, "If the bird doesn't sing, I'll kill it."
Toyotomi Hideyoshi says, "If the bird doesn't sing, I'll make it."
Tokugawa Ieyasu says, "If the bird doesn't sing, I'll wait until it sings."
Anyway, most of what I know about him is through Western historians, and there are almost no English translations of the Japanese accounts of the Sengoku Jidai. It's easier to find translated copies of Linear B tablets from 1200 BC than them.
Interesting that you mention that. I'd argue that the concepts of bushido and wa became much more ingrained into the Japanese mindset because of the Tokugawa shogunate.caster51 said:
- 23 Jun 2006
- 39
- 4
Leto & Oyakata - If you're interested in reading some direct translations of Nobunaga's writings, you can check out this book. Amazon product ASIN 9074822223
I believe its the only book in English written about him.
Nobunaga was probably looking to modernize Japan in some aspects. However, he died way before any of these plans could have been seriously thought about. However, I still strongly doubt he would have made the country Catholic unless he could have been God or the Pope.
I believe its the only book in English written about him.
Nobunaga was probably looking to modernize Japan in some aspects. However, he died way before any of these plans could have been seriously thought about. However, I still strongly doubt he would have made the country Catholic unless he could have been God or the Pope.
Nobunaga did not intended to abolish Buddhism in Japan, but he just wanted depoliticization of some Buddhism monks, though the outcome was harsh.
Some historians say that people before the Edo had enjoyed freedom than the one in the Edo period . It is partly true that you could have freedom to be a Nobunaga or Hideyoshi, however you also had freedom to be killed...
Some historians say that people before the Edo had enjoyed freedom than the one in the Edo period . It is partly true that you could have freedom to be a Nobunaga or Hideyoshi, however you also had freedom to be killed...
- 4 Jun 2006
- 561
- 39
Hence the whole Ikko and Honganji rebellions, and the huge wars he fought against the sohei.pipokun said:
Ah, this is a recurrent theme throughout human history. Freedom amidst chaos. The "perfect freedom" Thomas Hobbes envisioned in his Leviathan is a nasty, brutish, and short life. But, yes, I've heard a great deal about how it was definitely a swashbuckling time in Japan's history--a veritable heroic age, something like the American Wild West. It is very easy to romanticize such an era, and lose sight of the mucky reality of it all.
Awesome. I'll have to remember it. $70-$80 is very steep for me, especially when I have to shell out $100+ for Mommsen's Romische Geschicte this fall semester. But it's definitely going on my "To-Eventually-Buy" list.Yoshida Shoin said:
- 4 Jun 2006
- 561
- 39
I'm not sure I understand what this has to do with Oda Nobunaga .
- 17 Jul 2002
- 5,907
- 385
I have only found this thread now. I wonder what Oda Nobunaga knew about the rest of Asia, and whether he had any idea of the population or military power of China and India at the time, among others. It would have been impossible for any country (even European) to conquer all Asia in the 16th century, because no country had sufficiently superior weapons. The Spaniards managed to conquer most of Central and South America because they had guns, cannons, horses, steel swords and armours and fought against almost naked tribesmen with bows. Asia was completely different as it had populous and well organised societies with long military traditions.
- 23 Jun 2006
- 39
- 4
Japans navy was garbage. That's why Hideyoshi lost Korea (besides his lack of interest). Japan had pirates that were good at naval warfare. They plundered ports in Korea and China for years. But the samurai were probably too proud to work with common ciminals or seek out their advice.
On the other side of the globe though, England made use of pirates to destroy the Spanish armada. Francis Drake was not much more than a pirate until he became employed by the Queen.
On the other side of the globe though, England made use of pirates to destroy the Spanish armada. Francis Drake was not much more than a pirate until he became employed by the Queen.
