Why the た form is being used here?

NoWayYesWay · 5 May 2021

I've read some manga on Twitter and there's a point I don't understand. The page's size is quite too big to be dropped here (I don't know why) so I'll drop the link to that chapter instead, sorry for that.

Here's the link :

In chapter 05【第05話更新】その日の夜（2/2）, the last panel of the last page, the main character (I guess) after chatting with the heroine he then thought to himself that もうちょっと話したかったな。but why たform here? I thought it'd be もうちょっと話したい。since he is just having that thought at the moment when the conversation end. I'm at a loss now, please help.

mdchachi · 5 May 2021

The conversation is done and over, hence it's already in the past even though it was just moments ago.

I think it's similar in English isn't it?

It's like going to an all you can eat buffet and eating the last of the crab rangoon and thinking to yourself "I wanted to eat more crab rangoon." You use past tense because it's all gone and there's no chance of eating more. Then you can feel sad for a moment before going up for another helping of sweet and sour chicken.

The nuance would be different if you said "I want to eat more crab rangoon." Then the implication might be that you'll wait there until they make more.

(Can you tell it's almost my dinner time? )

NoWayYesWay · 5 May 2021

So, when he thinks もうちょっと話したかったな。it has nothing to do about "when he has that thought" but it's about the "want" which happened in the past (the moment after the conversation is done) so たform is being used here to tells us about this "want" which he had it in the past, am I correct?

Toritoribe · 5 May 2021

If you mean "whether or not he has that thought now" by "when he has that thought", yes. The past form is used there since it's about a past event. For instance, あの本面白かったな or あの映画怖かったな are used even if the speaker still thinks the book is fun or the movie is scary, because "reading the book" or "watching the movie" are a past event.

Incidentally, もうちょっと話したいな also can be used there. In this case, the focus is put more on his present thought "I still want to talk with her" or his wish for the future "Next time I want to talk with her for a bit longer time."

Needless to say, he is talking to himself, and the author doesn't intentionally tell us(=readers) that his wish is in the past. It's a very natural utterance in that situation in Japanese.

Buntaro · 5 May 2021

NoWayYesWay said:
た form is being used here to tells us about this "want" which he had it in the past, am I correct?

Yes.

In English, when we bemoan our inability to be assertive, we can say to ourselves,

1) I want to say more.

2) I wanted to say more.

The grammatical difference between these two English examples is the same as it is with their Japanese equivalents.

NoWayYesWay · 6 May 2021

Thank you all for your answers.

Toritoribe said:
the author doesn't intentionally tell us(=readers) that his wish is in the past.

so, もうちょっと話したかったな。can be interpreted as 2 meanings

1) He's telling us his wish about the past event.

2) His wish is in the past

Which depends on the context (which for this manga it's 1) did I get it right?

also If I were to (stubbornly) say もうちょっと話していたかったな。what's the nuance of it, or this sentence has no meaning?

mdchachi · 6 May 2021

Yes, (1) is most appropriate. It seems like you're overthinking this. Are you a native English speaker? It's basically the same as English.

In this same situation after you hung up the phone you'd say
"I wanted to talk more."
not
"I want to talk more."
wouldn't you?

NoWayYesWay · 6 May 2021

Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker but I think I'll stick with what you told me that it's the same as in English (also, I'll stick with "If it's about the past --> use past tense")

Thank you all, I really appreciate it.

Toritoribe · 6 May 2021

NoWayYesWay said:
so, もうちょっと話したかったな。can be interpreted as 2 meanings

1) He's telling us his wish about the past event.

2) His wish is in the past

Which depends on the context (which for this manga it's 1) did I get it right?

It seems to me that both #1 and #2 are the same thing unless #2 emphasizes that he doesn't have that wish now, and I believe this expression is rarely used for that meaning. If the speaker wants to show that he doesn't want to do it now, it's necessary to express it more clearly, for instance あの時はもうちょっと話したかったけど.

NoWayYesWay said:
also If I were to (stubbornly) say もうちょっと話していたかったな。what's the nuance of it, or this sentence has no meaning?

In that context, there is no significant difference between those two expressions.

mdchachi · 6 May 2021

NoWayYesWay said:
Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker but I think I'll stick with what you told me that it's the same as in English (also, I'll stick with "If it's about the past --> use past tense")

Thank you all, I really appreciate it.

Since your location is Thailand I thought maybe not. But then your written English is perfect and very native-like so I wasn't sure.

NoWayYesWay · 7 May 2021

Toritoribe said:
In that context, there is no significant difference between those two expressions.

so, both expressions are interchangeable?

mdchachi said:
Since your location is Thailand I thought maybe not. But then your written English is perfect and very native-like so I wasn't sure.

Thank you very much. I still have a long way to go.

Toritoribe · 7 May 2021

In that context, yes. もうちょっと話したかったな would be more common, though.

Incidentally, ～たかった and ～ていたかった are not always the same in meaning. For instance, もうちょっと食べたかったな is usually talking about the quantity of the meal, while もうちょっと食べていたかったな puts focus more on the time length of eating.

On the other hand, もうちょっと休みたかったな is almost the same as もうちょっと休んでいたかったな in meaning, because the quantity and the time length are the same thing in "taking a rest."

The same goes to 話したかった vs. 話していたかった. The quantity of the conversation and the time length of the conversation express almost the same meaning after all.

NoWayYesWay · 8 May 2021

I got it. ～たい/たかった simply means you want/wanted to do something and ～ていたい/ていたかった means you want/wanted to keep on doing something so, in some case they're interchangeable.

Thank you very much, I'm much more clearer about this たかった now

xminus1 · 8 May 2021

Toritoribe said:
If you mean "whether or not he has that thought now" by "when he has that thought", yes. The past form is used there since it's about a past event. For instance, あの本面白かったな or あの映画怖かったな are used even if the speaker still thinks the book is fun or the movie is scary, because "reading the book" or "watching the movie" are a past event.

Incidentally, もうちょっと話したいな also can be used there. In this case, the focus is put more on his present thought "I still want to talk with her" or his wish for the future "Next time I want to talk with her for a bit longer time."

Needless to say, he is talking to himself, and the author doesn't intentionally tell us(=readers) that his wish is in the past. It's a very natural utterance in that situation in Japanese.

I came across this sentence in my textbook yesterday:

魚の他に色々な材料を使った物も人気があります

I wondered why 使った as opposed to 使う?

mdchachi · 8 May 2021

It's like saying "Foods made with ingredients other than fish are also popular." Same thing here. Made is past tense.

Toritoribe · 8 May 2021

NoWayYesWay said:
I got it. ～たい/たかった simply means you want/wanted to do something and ～ていたい/ていたかった means you want/wanted to keep on doing something so, in some case they're interchangeable.

Yes, but you need to know that 話したかった and 話していたかった are not always interchangeable since もうちょっと affects the meaning there. If he said 話したかったな without もうちょっと, it strongly suggests that he had something he wanted/needed to tell her, and he didn't/couldn't tell it. However, 話していたかったな is almost the same meaning as もうちょっと話していたかったな.

Also, if he just says 彼女と話したかったな, it implies that he didn't talk with her. In this case, 彼女と話していたかったな doesn't make sense. The context is the key, after all.

xminus1 said:
I came across this sentence in my textbook yesterday:

魚の他に色々な材料を使った物も人気があります

I wondered why 使った as opposed to 使う?

使う物 is also OK in that sentence. The difference is where the viewpoint is put, "after the dish is made" vs. "before it's made" or "a general explanation about the dish."

If the speaker is talking about a dish they are eating at the time, the present form 使う sounds a bit odd.
e.g.
これは唐辛子を使った（使う？）料理だからすごく辛い。

On the other hand, 使う can be used for dishes with red peppers in general.
e.g.
麻婆豆腐は唐辛子をたくさん使う/使った料理です。

"Made" is actually the past participle form in mdchachi-san's example, not the past form.

Foods made with ingredients other than fish = Foods that are/were made with ingredients other than fish
(lit. 魚の他にいろいろな材料で作られた物)

a book written(not wrote) in Japanese
日本語で書かれた本
cf.
日本語で書いた本
a book I/someone wrote in Japanese

NoWayYesWay · 9 May 2021

Toritoribe said:
Yes, but you need to know that 話したかった and 話していたかった are not always interchangeable since もうちょっと affects the meaning there. If he said 話したかったな without もうちょっと, it strongly suggests that he had something he wanted/needed to tell her, and he didn't/couldn't tell it. However, 話していたかったな is almost the same meaning as もうちょっと話していたかったな.

Also, if he just says 彼女と話したかったな, it implies that he didn't talk with her. In this case, 彼女と話していたかったな doesn't make sense. The context is the key, after all.

Thanks to you, I think I'm good with たかった/ていたかった now. However, when I saw a sentence from xminus1-san's question, there're 2 points I don't understand.

xminus1 said:
魚の他に色々な材料を使った物も人気があります

(Big thanks to xminus1-san, sorry for not asking for your permission in advance)

- Why 他に instead of 他の, I think it should be 魚の他の色々な材料 (Ingredients other than fish)

- Why を is being used there, I think it supposed to be で instead since 魚の他に色々な材料 (which I think it should be 他の) aren't the foods but there're the ingredients which the foods are made of.

So, I think the whole sentence should be 魚の他のいろいろな材料で作った物も人気があります but after seeing the sentence you give as an example (this one : これは唐辛子を使った（使う？）料理だからすごく辛い。) it seems like I might get a wrong idea about this.

xminus1 · 9 May 2021

NoWayYesWay said:
Thanks to you, I think I'm good with たかった/ていたかった now. However, when I saw a sentence from xminus1-san's question, there're 2 points I don't understand.

(Big thanks to xminus1-san, sorry for not asking for your permission in advance)

- Why 他に instead of 他の, I think it should be 魚の他の色々な材料 (Ingredients other than fish)

- Why を is being used there, I think it supposed to be で instead since 魚の他に色々な材料 (which I think it should be 他の) aren't the foods but there're the ingredients which the foods are made of.

So, I think the whole sentence should be 魚の他のいろいろな材料で作った物も人気があります but after seeing the sentence you give as an example (this one : これは唐辛子を使った（使う？）料理だからすごく辛い。) it seems like I might get a wrong idea about this.

こんにちは！I confess I didn't notice 材料を使った物 as being questionable...it's very interesting now that you bring it up, NoWayYesWay-san. Along with you, I'll look forward to an explanation from someone who knows what they're talking about.

Having said that, here's the fuller context of the snippet I asked about earlier:

これは魚とご飯で作る冷たい料理です。今は世界中に店があって、魚のほかにいろいろな材料を作ったものも人気があります。

The bold emphasis is mine. Note the で! Perhaps the fuller context provides some flexibility in what can be understood.

mdchachi · 9 May 2021

NoWayYesWay said:
Why 他に

I think this is kind of a set phrase meaning "else" or "other." Many examples here. I think your suggestion also works.

NoWayYesWay said:
Why を is being used there

The original verb was 使う but you changed it 作る in your example so it's no longer the same example when you do that.
It's like saying "This dish uses soy sauce" vs "This dish is made with soy sauce." Two verbs are used to say the same thing.

Toritoribe · 9 May 2021

NoWayYesWay said:
- Why 他に instead of 他の, I think it should be 魚の他の色々な材料 (Ingredients other than fish)

As mdchachi-san wrote, の also works here. 魚の他に is an adverbial phrase which modifies 使う, so another word order 色々な材料を魚の他に使った物 also works well without changing the meaning.

On the other hand, 魚の他の is an attributive phrase which modifies 材料, so it should be put before 材料. That's why 色々な材料を魚の他の使った物 is ungrammatical.

xminus1 said:
これは魚とご飯で作る冷たい料理です。

xminus1 said:
魚のほかにいろいろな材料を作ったものも人気があります。

As mdchachi-san pointed out, the key is the verb that is attached to the particle. The original second sentence is 材料を使ったもの, not 作った, so を is used. を indicates the object of 使う, while で indicates the ingredient/material.

いろいろな材料を使う/使った料理
いろいろな材料で作る/作った料理

xminus1 · 9 May 2021

My apologies for the 誤字 and thank you for the corrections. Here's the sentence as it was intended:

これは魚とご飯で作る冷たい料理です。今は世界中に店があって、魚のほかにいろいろな材料を使ったものも人気があります。

Not so strangely, when the proper words are used, it makes sense even to me.

Sorry for the confusion.

Toritoribe · 10 May 2021

Additional explanation:

My reply "の also works here" might not be appropriate in my previous post. I meant "it's grammatical" by "works well", but 魚の他のいろいろな材料を使ったもの(= 料理) is different from the original 魚の他にいろいろな材料を使ったもの in meaning.

In the original 魚の他にいろいろな材料を使ったもの, 魚 is included in the ingredients, while 魚 is not included in 魚の他のいろいろな材料を使ったもの, thus, 魚の他のいろいろな材料 actually means "other ingredients except fish".

The same goes with 魚の他にいろいろな材料で作ったもの vs. 魚の他のいろいろな材料で作ったもの.

Why the た form is being used here?

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