What ARE your legal rights in Japan as a foreigner?

Dave: I understand what you are trying to say and it does indeed seem to be a self-evident point--that those more familiar with something will be better at judging it. That part I was always clear about, so I guess I was not clear enough about asking you to explain precisely what I didn't understand, which is: what work do you want the analogy to do (how does it apply to your overall argument in this thread)?

I assume you mean that because you are quite skilled at Japanese, you would be more qualified than say, a person like me, who has decent Japanese but is still clearly in the process of learning, to judge foreigners' Japanese levels. This seems obvious. I am able to distinguish the Japanese level of most Japanese learners, as I am a decent level now myself, but if I had to distinguish between two near native speakers, I would not yet be aware of the criteria by which to judge them. On this, who could disagree with you?

If, however, you are saying that by dint of your Japanese knowledge, you would be able to somewhat accurately judge the overall level of foreigners in Japan--here I would object. Everyone sees a different cross section of Japan, and even if you have lived here for a long time, seen the country from different perspectives, and meant many foreigners, it would be very possible to have a skewed perception for some reason or other. If you run in a circle of translators, academics, or working professionals, you might be overexposed to high level Japanese. If you run with the military or NOVA teachers, perhaps the opposite. Without demographic statistics, the average person's opinion has to be taken with an ocean of salt

Of course the qualities you seem to possess--having a high knowledge of the language and having seen many sides of Japan--would make you as good as a layman without comprehensive statistics at hand could hope to be, however another layman with seemingly similar qualifications, Orochi, disagreed with you, which is what prompted the search for statistics to begin with.

If the point behind your analogy was to defend your assertion that foreigners' japanese level is poor by asserting yourself as an authority on the matter (have I understood the point of your analogy correctly?), in my mind you have only also established as an authority another who contradicts you. Since the JREF stats are junk, that leaves us looking for better statistics or dropping the point...

Charles Barkley said:

Dave: I understand what you are trying to say and it does indeed seem to be a self-evident point--that those more familiar with something will be better at judging it. That part I was always clear about, so I guess I was not clear enough about asking you to explain precisely what I didn't understand, which is: what work do you want the analogy to do (how does it apply to your overall argument in this thread)?

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Now I see where I was misunderstanding you. My point I was trying to make was about the right for foriegners to be able to vote just because they pay taxes. I was trying to point out that if you don't completely understand the language then it would be impossible to make a competent decision for the good of the country and a lot of foriegners don't know the language so it would be unfair on a Japanese citizen to have this thrust upon them. Well ,that was the basic outline, of corse it is more compplicated then that.

Charles Barkley said:

I assume you mean that because you are quite skilled at Japanese, you would be more qualified than say, a person like me, who has decent Japanese but is still clearly in the process of learning, to judge foreigners' Japanese levels. This seems obvious. I am able to distinguish the Japanese level of most Japanese learners, as I am a decent level now myself, but if I had to distinguish between two near native speakers, I would not yet be aware of the criteria by which to judge them. On this, who could disagree with you?

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Thank you for your candor.

Charles Barkley said:

If, however, you are saying that by dint of your Japanese knowledge, you would be able to somewhat accurately judge the overall level of foreigners in Japan--here I would object. Everyone sees a different cross section of Japan, and even if you have lived here for a long time, seen the country from different perspectives, and meant many foreigners, it would be very possible to have a skewed perception for some reason or other. If you run in a circle of translators, academics, or working professionals, you might be overexposed to high level Japanese. If you run with the military or NOVA teachers, perhaps the opposite. Without demographic statistics, the average person's opinion has to be taken with an ocean of salt

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By anyones standards my oppinion or anyones else oppinion is only speculation and I would never be so arrogant to assume that I know better. I totally agree with you on experiences and everyones is different. I am lucky enough to have worked in many different feilds here before I settled down to what I am doing now. I agree totally with your last statment too.

Charles Barkley said:

Of course the qualities you seem to possess--having a high knowledge of the language and having seen many sides of Japan--would make you as good as a layman without comprehensive statistics at hand could hope to be, however another layman with seemingly similar qualifications, Orochi, disagreed with you, which is what prompted the search for statistics to begin with.

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Which is why I kept asking for statistics, b/c I know my oppinion is not the be all to end all. I am hoping someone will come up with someything b/c I find it very interesting.

Charles Barkley said:

If the point behind your analogy was to defend your assertion that foreigners' japanese level is poor by asserting yourself as an authority on the matter (have I understood the point of your analogy correctly?), in my mind you have only also established as an authority another who contradicts you. Since the JREF stats are junk, that leaves us looking for better statistics or dropping the point...

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My analogy was to simply express that if infact the majority of non-westerners really did not possess the skills of a kindregarten student it would be hard for them to make an informed opinion on the topic of Japanese levels, generally speaking.
I agree, if no one can produce the stats then there really is nothing left to talk about.

FrustratedDave said:

Now I see where I was misunderstanding you. My point I was trying to make was about the right for foriegners to be able to vote just because they pay taxes. I was trying to point out that if you don't completely understand the language then it would be impossible to make a competent decision for the good of the country and a lot of foriegners don't know the language so it would be unfair on a Japanese citizen to have this thrust upon them.

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Rubbish! How many of your fellow countrymen and women have voted back home for idiots, and that was in their own language!?

Glenski said:

Just thought I'd respond more fully to Pachipro, who wrote:
The answer is in the Police Execution of Duties Law, Section 2:
"A police officer is able to ask for a person's ID, but only if based on a reasonable judgment of a situation where the police officer sees some strange conduct and some crime is being committed, or else he has enough reason to suspect that a person will commit or has commited a crime, or else it has been acknowledged that a particular person knows a crime will be committed. In these cases, a police officer may stop a person for questioning."

So, there you have it. No World Constitution needed. The problem is, police officers bend this law a lot when they encounter situations where they question only the foreigners.

Also, just for edification and education, there is another clause that states police officers cannot force you to go to the police station or koban against your will unless they are arresting you.

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The law, the Police Execution of Duties Law, Section 2, is not clear, sometimes abuse of the police or others just a crime after all, so there are so many case laws.

And you don't bend the law above, but you intentionally (probably) ignore the immigration act for non-Japanese to show their ID at the official request.

*snip
It is interesting even the moral county where Taiko666 is from had/has some controversy about the stop and question.

Stop and search
The infamous 'sus' law allowing police to stop, search, or arrest a 'suspected person', had been so widely abused that there were riots in Brixton, Handsworth, Toxteth, Southall & Moss Side in the early '80's.

Stop and search - Wikipedia

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Of course, you are the person who create a new case law when you think the stop & question is illegal. The door has always opened to anybody, Japanese or non-Japanese.

Emoni said:

Pachipro said:

But, if that were to happen, then it would not be Japan anymore would it? It would be just like any other mundane western country and why would anyone want to live there then? With all it's flaws, and the few "hassles" foreigners have to face, Japan is unique (as well as many other Asian countries) and I hope it stays that way.

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Emoni said:

This makes perfect logical sense... until 2 seconds later when you realize how racist this actually is. Then you get a shiver realizing how easily mindsets are justified like this, how how this is the very logic that so much is justified in Japan. Let alone the situation of foreigners dealing with police stops "just because" they are foreign.

Pachipro I love your posts, but I hope you carefully reread what you just posted here. Then go read a few articles on racism in Japan and other ethnicities, read on how slavery and other issues were justified, and I truly hope you question this idea of "keeping Japan pure" in whatever exact sense you might have in your mind.

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I have re-read it carefully at your request, but I fail to see how it is racist Emoni. And I still believe, however flawed it may be in yours and others' thinking, that Japan should remain Japan. Are you implying that all countries of the world, including Japan, should be equal with no boarders and any foreigner can be free to live anywhere anytime without fear of the local police or being asked for their ID? If so, then you must be one of those in favor of a One World Government or New World Order where all are equal and anyone can live anywhere. If so, you may get your wish in your lifetime, but I feel you may regret it. Me? I will probably not be around when it all comes down, but I digress.

I don't know what else to say or how better to explain my position. I completely understand where you, Debito, Glenski, etc are coming from, I just disagree with your positions as foreigners living in a foreign land and expecting to be treated as equals when it will probably never happen. Ever. As long as there are differing races and customs and such there will always be racism/prejudice IMO.

Even among people of the same race, there will always be prejudices based on area, income, education, family, etc. IE Hillibillys, hicks, city folk and country folk. Northerners, southerners, Easterners, mid western, West Coasters, etc., etc.

The same holds true in Japan. Osaka vs Tokyo; country folk vs city folk, hicks vs others, farmers vs factory workers, rich vs poor. It is just the way the world has been and will probably always be. Prejudice lives and always has for as long as there have been people on the earth. I cannot see it going away anytime soon. To me it is a basic fact of life no matter where one lives. It may not be right in our thinking, but try as we may, it will never be abolished as long as there are people on this planet. I have just learned to accept it as a fact of life. No matter where I have lived, in the US or Japan, I have experienced it and it is today as strong as it ever was.

As far as my comment goes, do you want to see Japanese culture completely disappear and be relagated to the literature classified as mythology or a dead race/culture/language? You surely cannot be implying that, but your answer seems to pointing in that direction as I fail to see how it is racist in any way whatsoever for my wanting Japan to remain Japan and be it's own unique culture.

Even though foreigners may be "easy targets" for the police to make them feel like they are "doing something", it is an acceptable fact of life for me in Japan. If I did not like it, I would not live there and besides, I never had a bad experience when living there save for the two time I broke their law. But as I said many times, I was treated fairly, was not abused or "tricked" or anything like that. I was treated as any Japanese would have and may even gotten off lighter because I was a foreigner. I will never know.

Anyway, even though we may agree to disagree on certain points, I thank you for making me think and for stimulating this debate. Your input is valuable as well as Glenskis' and still proves that, for now, we are all individuals with differing opinions. That's what makes life so interesting. Who knows? I may just change my tune if I ever "come to my senses".

pipokun said:

The law, the Police Execution of Duties Law, Section 2, is not clear, sometimes abuse of the police or others just a crime after all, so there are so many case laws.

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This is the chief reason foreigners complain. Police try to bend their own law. Nasty thing, having authority, isn't it?

Pachipro said:

I don't know what else to say or how better to explain my position. I completely understand where you, Debito, Glenski, etc are coming from, I just disagree with your positions as foreigners living in a foreign land and expecting to be treated as equals when it will probably never happen.

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Stop. I never said I expected to be treated as an equal, if you mean "equal" is the same as a Japanese citizen. I'm not that naive. HOWEVER, I DO expect Japan to adhere to its own constitution and the international treaty on human rights that it signed, and not just give us foreigners lip service.

The same holds true in Japan. Osaka vs Tokyo; country folk vs city folk, hicks vs others, farmers vs factory workers, rich vs poor. It is just the way the world has been and will probably always be. Prejudice lives and always has for as long as there have been people on the earth.

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And, that's why there are laws against it, so one can fight back. HOWEVER, when the law itself (i.e., police and courts) don't follow such laws, the community is in trouble.

I cannot see it going away anytime soon. To me it is a basic fact of life no matter where one lives.

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Of course, it won't go away quickly or soon, but that doesn't make it right or make it something to be ignored or pooh-poohed. Come live here and say what you have to say.

As far as my comment goes, do you want to see Japanese culture completely disappear and be relagated to the literature classified as mythology or a dead race/culture/language?

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I'M sorry, but this is a ludicrous question. Why would you even pose it? Nobody here is saying that. Perhaps some Japanese bureaucrats feel that J culture will die out if they have an influx of too many foreigners, but you know something? Culture changes and evolves, and Japan's culture WILL die if something isn't done to repopulate the country.

Even though foreigners may be "easy targets" for the police to make them feel like they are "doing something", it is an acceptable fact of life for me in Japan. If I did not like it, I would not live there and besides, I never had a bad experience when living there

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Lucky you. How about trying to see and feel what the UNlucky ones do?

Glenski said:

Pachipro,
Your profile says you have not lived here for the past 20 years. Things have changed somewhat since 1988.

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C'mon, Glenski. You must know by now that I am not totally ignorant of Japan or out of touch, that I have a home there, and have returned on a yearly basis (albeit for a few weeks) and would be living there at this moment if it were not for something I have to do for my late brother. I am as cognizant of Japan today as I was when I lived there full-time, so please do not put that on me. Look at me as a "Japanese" who is living overseas, but not at all out of touch with the politics, culture, news, country, language (well maybe I have lost a little of the language), etc.

As for "The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! " Just looking foreign is not reason enough according to the law, but police abuse that law.

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It may not be reason enough according to the law as you state, but it does happen as it does here in the US. It happens and always will.

Glenski said:

Pachipro said:

As far as the governor of Tokyo is concerned or a few police here and there, and stories to the magazines, of course there always will be isolated incidents

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Glenski said:

Oh, come on! What nonsense!
1) Those are NOT isolated incidents.
2) To say they happen and shrug them off as isolated is putting on blinders and ignoring the problem.

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It's not putting on blinders, it is just accepting the fact, as much as I also disagree with it, that it does happen, just as it happens on a daily basis here in the US and many other countries. Can you name me any other cases where it has happened? Can you point me to a case where a foreigner was arrested for doing nothing wrong after showing his/her papers or complying with the law?

Glenski said:

Pachipro said:

In your thinking, it would be perfectable acceptable and preferable for the police to say, "Oh OK. Please go on your way." Then I commit a terrorist act. Can''t you see the logic here for them stopping all non-Japanese/Korean/Chinese looking persons whether they be citizens or not?

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Glenski said:

Don't put words in my mouth. You obviously have not read a single word that I wrote about the reasons police stop foreigners and how wrong this is. I can't debate with people who do that.
Besides, no foreigner has ever committed a terrorist act in Japan, or haven't you heard? Don't throw out that lame excuse like a Japanese politician or cop or immigration official.

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I have read everything you have written Glenski. I am not putting words in your mouth, I am only interpreting, however much you may think me wrong, what you have said and written and that is: Anyone should be able to tell the police they have no right to stop and question you, a foreign looking person, for you to not show them your papers and happily go on your way. To you, I gather from your writings, that would be a perfect world in Japan for a foreigner. Is that why you cannot debate people who think as I do?

Maybe the reason why there have been no terrorist acts by foreigners in Japan is BECAUSE the police are so vigilant in their questioning of foreigners and preventing them from entering or questioning them in airports, etc. No?

Glenski said:

Pachipro said:

Do you honestly believe that your human rights are abused because you are stopped for no reason at all in a foreign country where you look like a foreigner?

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Glenski said:

Why don't you?

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No, I honestly DO NOT believe my human rights are being abused/violated by being stopped as a foreigner in a foreign country and being asked for my papers to show my legal status. Not in the least. I expect it and believe it should be done as, if I were not stopped, I would feel that the police are not doing their job in keeping their country safe, not like here in the US.

Profiling exists for a reason and those reasons, more often than not, prove to be working and justified, not only in Japan, but here in the US as well, as most profiling stops on the interstates here in the US often turn up fugitives and drugs as I see on a nightly basis on the interstate.

I wonder how you would feel and think, when you do, if ever, return to the US and witness things far more worse than in Japan that is going on here in the US as far as stops of people are concerned. I wonder if you would be as vocal here as you are in Japan. I believe you would also see, as I do, that Japan is far more tame than what is currently going on in the country of your birth. In fact I think you would be more shocked.

Note: Just to show I am not a complete "A-hole", as much as we may disagree on this point Glenski (and no I AM NOT sucking up! Just stating a fact), I value your input and your info on questions concerning visas, rights, working etc. You offer much valuable info and I thank you for the much time you put into it as I have saved many of the links.

Pachipro said:

C'mon, Glenski. You must know by now that I am not totally ignorant of Japan or out of touch, that I have a home there, and have returned on a yearly basis

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I'm sorry, Pachipro, but I am not one who keeps track of people's lives, so all I could remember about you was what you wrote in your profile.

Look at me as a "Japanese" who is living overseas, but not at all out of touch with the politics, culture, news, country, language

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Sorry, but if all you do is come here for a few weeks a year, you are more out of touch with the culture and issues than you might want to admit. No offense, but I'm looking at things as reasonably as I can. Will try to keep in mind what you wrote, though.

I wrote: As for "The REASON why foreigners are stopped is because they look foreign whether they are citizens or not! " Just looking foreign is not reason enough according to the law, but police abuse that law.
Pachipro replied:
It may not be reason enough according to the law as you state, but it does happen as it does here in the US. It happens and always will.

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C'mon. We are not talking about the U.S. here. You of all people should realize the difference. And, what's more, your last statement above smacks me in the face. What is that supposed to mean? Roll over and play dead? Grovel? Shut up and take it? You know my answer (and that of many others here, rightfully so).

Re: Tokyo governor, police crime magazines, etc.
It's not putting on blinders, it is just accepting the fact, as much as I also disagree with it, that it does happen, just as it happens on a daily basis here in the US and many other countries. Can you name me any other cases where it has happened?

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Read www.debito.org obviously.

what you have said and written and that is: Anyone should be able to tell the police they have no right to stop and question you, a foreign looking person, for you to not show them your papers and happily go on your way.

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The law says "guarantees" us this right, so why can't we ask for the police to abide by the law? I presume your hypothetical case above is when the foreigner is doing nothing overtly wrong, of course.

To you, I gather from your writings, that would be a perfect world in Japan for a foreigner. Is that why you cannot debate people who think as I do?

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I'm debating as well as I can, but you seem to be stubborn about some facts and issues, and ignoring others. Everyone wants a perfect world for themselves, and I'm not so much a dreamer to think it can happen, but why should foreigners have their rights stomped on if it can be avoided? You call it human nature or some such thing. Ok, but human nature includes negative nature, like discrimination, which as I wrote earlier, is why we make laws to protect our rights in favor of a more perfect, ideal world. Is there any reason we should not strive for that?

Maybe the reason why there have been no terrorist acts by foreigners in Japan is BECAUSE the police are so vigilant in their questioning of foreigners and preventing them from entering or questioning them in airports, etc. No?

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Speculation. Perhaps the foreign terrorists just don't care about Japan. More speculation, of course, but you can't just say what you did and make it so. Vigilance is one thing, but other factors are involved, too. Laws against harboring nuclear weapons. Laws against swords, guns, and knives. Those apply to Japanese as well as foreigners, of course.

No, I honestly DO NOT believe my human rights are being abused/violated by being stopped as a foreigner in a foreign country and being asked for my papers to show my legal status. Not in the least. I expect it and believe it should be done as, if I were not stopped, I would feel that the police are not doing their job in keeping their country safe, not like here in the US.

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That is the clearest statement you have made, and clearly we must agree to disagree on this one. I cannot fathom why you think that way, but as I tell my students, it is your opinion, and if I cannot sway you, then I cannot tell you the opinion is wrong. It is just your opinion, and I have the opposite one.

Profiling exists for a reason and those reasons, more often than not, prove to be working and justified, not only in Japan, but here in the US as well, as most profiling stops on the interstates here in the US often turn up fugitives and drugs as I see on a nightly basis on the interstate.

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So, you have data to support that word "most"? I don't think so.

I wonder how you would feel and think, when you do, if ever, return to the US and witness things far more worse than in Japan that is going on here in the US as far as stops of people are concerned. I wonder if you would be as vocal here as you are in Japan. I believe you would also see, as I do, that Japan is far more tame than what is currently going on in the country of your birth. In fact I think you would be more shocked.

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As you know very well, this topic is not about the U.S. situation.

Note: Just to show I am not a complete "A-hole", as much as we may disagree on this point Glenski (and no I AM NOT sucking up! Just stating a fact), I value your input and your info on questions concerning visas, rights, working etc. You offer much valuable info and I thank you for the much time you put into it as I have saved many of the links.

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Point taken and I thank you, not only for that, but for keeping this a civil disagreement. Perhaps we should end it here.

I am curious, are there any organizations that help protect the rights of foreigners (or even Japanese citizens?) in Japan. I'm aware of the Debito site, but are there any support agencies that would help in a situation or fight for legal rights or give assistance that foreigners should be aware of?

I am curious, are there any organizations that help protect the rights of foreigners (or even Japanese citizens?) in Japan.

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I'm curious about this as well.

Legal rights related to jobs: Labour Standards Office, your union (or at least this one for foreign workers -- http://nambufwc.org/ )

A plethora of sites depending on the problem: http://www.generalunion.org/links

Human rights:
http://www.crnjapan.com/otherorgs/en/human_rights.html
Human rights in Japan - Wikipedia (WARNING! It's wikipedia.)

As a foreigner, pretty much all rights are protected under the law, except for the rights that specifically address citizens. No country places foreigners' rights above those of citizens. Japan is no exception. Any foreigner who demands more than what locals can ask for is, in fact, asking for priviledges, which is just arrogant, imo.

Any foreigner who demands more than what locals can ask for is, in fact, asking for priviledges, which is just arrogant, imo.

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But none of us are asking for that in this thread, nor has the topic come up until now. Why did you bring it up?

orochi said:

But none of us are asking for that in this thread, nor has the topic come up until now. Why did you bring it up?

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Your rights are protected, what else do you want?

Emoni said:

I am curious, are there any organizations that help protect the rights of foreigners (or even Japanese citizens?) in Japan. I'm aware of the Debito site, but are there any support agencies that would help in a situation or fight for legal rights or give assistance that foreigners should be aware of?

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The bar association of Japan has a free service which is limited to 30min for a consult, after that it is it will cost you. But this is the same for foriengers and Japanese alike. This is you best option.

anomouse said:

Your rights are protected, what else do you want?

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Did you read the thread?

orochi said:

Did you read the thread?

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Of course.
Your human rights are protected. What else do you want?
Civil rights? Be a citizen!

anomouse said:

Your rights are protected, what else do you want?

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As Orochi insinuated, read the thread before blanket and unrelated statements like this. I'm starting to think you just want to spark a flame war here with your short and UNSUPPORTED comments.

As much as I might disagree with a few of the posters here, they are making an effort to support and explain themselves. That is critical on an issue such as law, so please Anomouse, read the thread, then post while backing up your statement with information or references... or at LEAST an explanation.

Heck... at least read the SECOND post by Mike Cash about the rights you have.

Emoni, you've been reported. I'm just expressing my opinion. You have no right to moderate this thread, telling people what to do.

anomouse said:

Of course.
Your human rights are protected. What else do you want?
Civil rights? Be a citizen!

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But this thread is full of examples of how our rights are not actually protected even though the law calls for it. That is the problem.

I've read the thread, but overall, got the impression that some people were simply confusing some basic concepts: privileges and rights; civil rights and human rights. So some people are misled to believe they have RIGHTS even though they don't deserve those rights. These concepts need to be discussed separately.

anomouse said:

Emoni, you've been reported.

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Don't think it was such a big thing to to report, and neither it was to tell Emoni; "You have been reported.... "ﾂ ﾂ
Keep it nice in here, I'm watching although I'm not a super nanny

anomouse said:

I've read the thread, but overall, got the impression that some people were simply confusing some basic concepts: privileges and rights; civil rights and human rights. They need to be discussed separately.

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Civil rights vs. human rights is not the issue.

Glenski said:

Rubbish! How many of your fellow countrymen and women have voted back home for idiots, and that was in their own language!?

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Missed this one.

Now Glenski, do you really think that because some halfwitts in their own country voting completely uninformed is grounds to let a foriegner after registering at city the right to vote, Just b/c the outcome may be the same? That really was a stupid statement if you ask me (no intention of offending)

orochi said:

But this thread is full of examples of how our rights are not actually protected even though the law calls for it. That is the problem.

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I only see issolated cases so far.

And the case about Mr Idubor and his refusal of bail by the courts, this also happens to Japanese, like I have said earlier I am failing to see foriegners rights abused by the law. 9 times out of ten the police have every right to conduct them selves the way they do.

I only see issolated cases so far.

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Did I say it was a wide-spread epidemic plaguing millions of people? No.
So what are you countering?

And your perception (and subjective judgment) of these incidents as isolated does not change the fact that there are occurrences. If we were discussing how huge the problems were, then it would be something to bring up (though some objective facts or statistics would be more welcome as a counter argument).

But that is not what we are talking about. So it is largely irrelevant statement that seems to have been made only to spite those with an opinion different from yours.