I wish I could get some data--that was my whole point in continuing to read the thread! Perhaps I was unclear in my previous post where I said that I had nothing at all to say about language ability of foreigners in Japan. Let me state it again then: I have nothing at all to say. I was not saying you were wrong. Nor was I saying Orochi was right. I was interested in the discussion and would like to see some decent statistics on the subject, so I was reading along hoping someone would be able to offer some. My only objection has been to your continued insistence that the JREF poll holds any credibility. As I said in my last post, I would rather hear your own opinion without facts than such a crappy poll. As this was just a small point which I was hoping you would quickly acknowledge, I will let it go here and not further clog the real discussion.
Again I am failing to understand your analogy--who is hiring whom for what job? And what does preferring to learn from a native speaker have to do with anything?
As far as I can tell, you have introduced the language argument as a way to brag about yourself (is there any other way to interpret your going on about 'no namari'), label others as unqualified to comment, and justify why you, unlike the unfortunate individuals being described in the thread, have escaped illegal, unjust treatment. Impressive egoism.
Ok, Charles I will explain my reasoning. As you said Quote
" As I said in my last post, I would rather hear your own opinion without facts than such a crappy poll. " ,I provided my own oppinon and my reasoning for posting about my Japanese ability (even though I knew I would ridiculed for it , and seen as just trying to show off) was to establish that someone with good Japanese can in fact get by and avoid a lot of trouble. If you want to believe I was braging that is your prerogative.
As for my analogy, they are seperate posts and have nothing to do with my language ability and they were seperate posts, that is all there is to it.
But if you can't understand it(analogy) then I am lost for words as I am finding it difficult to make it simpler. Does anyone else understand what I am trying to say?
Anyway I will try to explain further for you.
In the real world why would anyone hire an amateur to do a pros job? Would you like to learn Japanese off someone who is mediocre at Japanese or a native speaker?
It is like having an amateur assess a pro athelets ability, from his/her standpoint the pro is very talented, but from a coaches standpoint the athelets ability could only be very mediocure. So if you keep that in mind and realise that Japanese beginers are amatures there oppinions on someones elses Japanese is pretty much worthless, this of corse will get better as you learn more of the language.
You seem to like basketball with a handle like yours so I will try to explain in basketball terms.
Lets say Mr A 35 years old, is a beginer who has just started the game and had never had any intrest before and is bsically starting from scratch. He can do the basic skills driblle the ball ect, ect. Then there is Mr B 35 years old, is a Pro Basketballer for 10 years, and was MVP many times over, so quite a good athelete in the Pro world and very skill full at his game.
Now lets say
YOU Charles are in the business of scouting players and you need a scout to scout for pro teams and the better the player you scout the more money you receive if they turn Pro. Now these two guys Mr A and Mr B are the only applicants for the job, both are willing to accept the terms offered by you. Who would
YOU choose to fill the position if you were in this postion? Mr B of corse, why have a guy Mr A who has just started basketball and knew nothing about the game or skills untill recently, how could he assess the players skills? Mr B however knows everything there is to know about the game and then some.
So now we apply this analogy. Again, lets say you run a company of providing translators for big firms and are in the market for someone to fill the postion of hiring, so this person has to assess the ability of the applicants Japanese. Of corse the better the translater the better the money for the company. Only two applicants apply, Mr A a 35 year old, who has just started learning Japanese recently and Mr B a 35 year old , who has lived here for over 20 years , went to school here from highschool to college and has worked in a typical Japanese company up until now. Who are
YOU going to choose? Again Mr B of corse. Why? B/c Mr A does not know his a$$ from his nose when it comes to judging someones ability in Japanese b/c he himself does not understand Japanese to the extent required. Now lets say Mr C a 35 year old who has lived here for 5 years since he was 30, has studied Japanese for those 5 years, but because you can only learn so much in the time he still has a long way to go, but can speak quite well and is doing pretty good in the writing department too. Again who would you choose to fill your postion in the company? Again Mr A, why? B/c although Mr C is qiute good he still won't be able to assess someones ability as he himself does not have a good enough grasp on the language even after studing for 5 years.
And the hiring an amateur for a pros job question was a rhetorical one.
If you really want some figures, I believe the average case (not counting tourists) is 3 years.
This is interesting as you have to wonder how good someone could get at Japanese in a 3 year period? That is considering that not everyone studies full time and some don't even bother at all.
Anyway, charles I hope you got the meaning this time and can see how I am trying to relate it to people who are still in the learning phase of Japanese would find it difficult to assess another foriengers language ability, that is all I am trying to say. I am notsaying that I am the only one that can do it b/c that is a load crap, there are people here know the langauge better than me and like I said before if you think thats what I am trying prove, well that is your prerogative.