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What ARE your legal rights in Japan as a foreigner?

KirinMan said:
No one made the comment about "I dont deserve equal treatment"
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Really?
FrustratedDave said:
Like I have said before , stolen bikes is not the only thing that needs to be checked. Face it, you are a visiter here and things have to been monitored.
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I interpreted that he was saying it's okay for police officers to stop "foreign-looking" people because they may be on stolen bikes or have other things that need to be checked--maybe they are an over stayer, for example.

As mentioned before, the police can stop people who they suspect of being involved in a crime. FrustratedDave's scenario is an example of unequal application of the law. That I disagree with.

KirinMan said:
yet it is arrogant to expect that as a foreign visitor you should expect to be treated as a citizen.
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I simply expect the equal protection that is already offered by the law.
Is it so much to ask the local authorities to follow their own rules? I think not.
How is that arrogant? And I am not a visitor.
 
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Yes, and like I said before the minority has ruined it for the majority so there for it could be considered certain amount of suspicion is there to warrent the police to check bikes. Now you and I can say that their is or isn't until until we are blue in the face, but the fact remains that foriegn people (western looking) have caused enough trouble to warrent this in some areas.
orochi said:
I didn't say it did.
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Well then tell me, what right do you have to tell the Japanese government how to run their country when you are not a citizen? B/c you pay taxes? I hardly think that alone qualifies you to do so.
orochi said:
I didn't say it did.
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Well what is your point in regards to this?
orochi said:
Do you have any statistics to back that up?
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You are not seriously going to believe that over half the non-Korean foriengers are able to converse and read and write as good as a kindergaten student? Or have you not spoken with a kindergaten student lately? Or better yet , have conversed with one of the many short term Stayers here that are here for a good time. Does anyone know what the percentage of people who come here end up obtaining permanant residency? I bet that would not be over 10%.
Maybe I should have put the word permanent in front of those residents words ,but you don't have to play coy with me you knew exactly what I was intending on saying. So can you you see the difference in being a resident and a citizen now? You said it yourself, quote "Anybody who is registered at their city hall and carries a gaijin card is a resident. I also pay residence tax. So I'm not sure where you're coming from. Remember that citizen and resident are two separate concepts." . So I have not made a mistake in saying if your are not a citizen then you should not be entiltled to the same rights as one. (when I say rights , I mean voting ect, ect)
It is either you are too arrogant or too ignorant to understand that in most cases the police are doing their job and following the law while doing so. (Nobody can say that 100% of the people working for the police force will do it equally , but Japaneses people have aslo been subjected to unfair police treatment so you can't say this is isolated to foreigners only) Do Japanese overstay their visas in Japan? Stupid question I know, I have to resort to this kind questioning to get the point across ,so when are you going to understand that not being a citizen sets us apart froms citizens. We have laws to abid by that citizensd do not, eg it is your duty to ensure that you visa status is valid and there are plenty more laws like that that we have to abid by that sets us apart from Japanese citizens . So why do you keep on saying that we should be treated like Japanese when it is a fact that there circumstances that the police have a duty to check and do their Job which may require them to stop people who are foriegn looking.
 
but you don't have to play coy with me you knew exactly what I was intending on saying
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I'm not playing coy. You used the wrong terms. And you're still getting snappy. If you won't clarify anything you say, this isn't worth my time. Sorry.
 
There is a very major flaw in those who are stating "you shouldn't be treated as a citizen" when comparing that to basic legal rights which implicitly are applied to both citizens and visitors alike. To me this point is extremely mute. You aren't defining what actually is "treating visitors and citizens" differently. Keep in mind we are talking about LAW here, and I'd love to hear laws that state "When Japanese people are doing this, they get this treatment, but when visitors do this do THIS." Instead behavior of police can follow this pattern, and in a sense police then even break the law themselves (not uncommon as police are people as well). Please think of this in legal terms, and the human rights and society control that the laws are based on. Not based on guesses, prejudice, and unrelated examples.

More over Orochi I have to say is making good point after well backed up point as usual in numerous regards.
 
The delicious and delightful point that keeps getting overlooked here, as it does in all such threads you may find anywhere on the net, is that it is being treated the same as Japanese that causes the foreigners to get their panties in a wad to begin with.

The underlying message, whether people realize it or not, is "I expect to be treated better because I'm a foreigner". Think about it: when this sort of thing comes up the natural and logical thing to do would be to decry the problems in the system as they relate to everyone....most especially Japanese citizens, since they are the ones primarily affected. But what happens instead is an unspoken premise of "good enough for them but I shouldn't have to put up with it" develops.

It's hilarious. As a corollary.....watch foreigners as they read the Daily Yomiuri, Japan Times, or some other such paper in Japan. Watch as they by and large skip right past all domestic (Japanese) news, as it does not apply to them and they are not interested in the slightest.
 
orochi said:
I'm not playing coy. You used the wrong terms. And you're still getting snappy. If you won't clarify anything you say, this isn't worth my time. Sorry.
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What a poor excuse, and by the way you answering you seem to know full well what I was talking about, now all you are trying to do is prove that I left out a few words and prove me wrong in a totally unrealated topic of of the use of English, so good for you, you did that. Is this your way of side stepping a topic that you can no longer anwser to? I clarified myself earlier by saying I should have put permanent in front of resident. So its your call.
Have you not been reading the thread? There are different laws for citizens and foreigners, so yes in legal terms we have less rights in regards to certain things in certain circustances. So no, police generally do not over step their bounds. But like I said before not all people adhear to the same principles and unfair treatment can occur, but again this is not issolated to foreigners.
I agree completely, and have seen this all too often. I hear foreigners complain and carry on as if it were their own country without the slightest clue on what is really happening. If you want at least some part of the truth you should at least be reading the "Nikkei" , but like I said earlier , only a very small portion of westerns can actually read it and understand it. Sigh... somepeople won't get it...
 
FrustratedDave said:
I hear foreigners complain and carry on as if it were their own country
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For some foreigners living here, it IS their country. Who are you to say where one calls home?

FrustratedDave said:
you should at least be reading the "Nikkei" , but like I said earlier , only a very small portion of westerns can actually read it and understand it.
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Do you have any statistics? And why are you limiting the scope to westerners here? Why do westerners have to pass this reading test of yours before they have the right to speak up? Do you think non-Westerners living in Japan should have more rights (by way of not having to pass this reading test)? I'm confused.
 

The problem is that citizens don't have to put up with all the same problems. (Similarly, one could argue that foreigners don't have to put up with all the same problems as citizens.)

Fingerprinting at the airport, for example. There is nothing inherently selfish (or wanting it better than a citizen) about finding a problem with this. You argue that those complaining should speak for the greater numbers, including citizens. But with certain problems like this one, citizens are not applicable.

So I am confused by your argument.
Do you have any specific examples?
 
orochi said:
For some foreigners living here, it IS their country. Who are you to say where one calls home?
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Don't confuse calling a country your own and actually having it as your own. If you want the same rights as a citizen then become one.



Why limit this to westerners? B/c these are the people who speak loudest , but refuse to adjust their ways to at least match some of the Japanese culture. Am I being to harsh? I don't know, but 95% of people I have met (which could number into the hundreds over the years that I have been here) have failed to grasp understanding of this culture, spoken and written language , like I said before I have been all over Japan so my experiences don't seem isolated to just me. I know 4 people who have lived here for close to 10 years and more who have a very , very basic grasp of the language, just enough for them to buy want they need at the store ect. ect. (When I asked them why they don't learn the language, the response in all 4 cases was, "why bother when you can get by using English) And to answer your last question , I think westerners and other Asian foriegners should have less rights than the zainich, which they do so thats my answer to your question.

Well, I shared my experiences on peoples language abilities and although I don't have any statisics to back it up I feel it is based on a fair truth of the situation of most foriengers here ( Not all, b/c there are some who go above and beyond) So I put it forth to you, show me some evidence or statistics that prove me wrong.
 
orochi said:
There is nothing inherently selfish (or wanting it better than a citizen) about finding a problem with this.
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This is exactly the mentality of your typical foriegner(westerner) living in Japan.
 
FrustratedDave said:
This is exactly the mentality of your typical foriegner(westerner) living in Japan.
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So you think that people who disagree with having their fingerprints taken upon entry to Japan are selfish and want it better than the locals?
 

117/10=11 times/a year

1. 2 times (sometimes 4)/year for seasonal traffic campaigns
2. It seems that he rides a bike much more often than I.
3. He lives in a police state, Tokyo, where cops stopped and questioned, "former head of police department, ex-politician, a lawyer", when he just walked around Shibuya with his uncool clothes.

Pardon my English, but I did not say that each 117 cases of him was an isolated case, but the whole his experience was the isolated one.

How many times, KirinMan and Glenski, have you stopped by the cop for your last 10 years?
 
pipokun,
In the past 10 years, I have been stopped only once by a police officer to ask for my ID, and he claimed it was because, at the time, Russians were abusing the visa system. Russians! Did I look Russian in some way? He also looked only at the front of my alien card and not the back where all the changes are made, so he didn't even have an up to date knowledge of me.

As for the guy who was stopped 117 times, perhaps the fact that he was stopped so many is isolated in itself, but two things stand out:

1) He was stopped so many times by the same police officer(s) for the same token reason, which they admitted was not always necessary, I believe. Sounds to me like they stopped him because of a quota system.

2) A person does not have to be stopped more than once for their ID to be such an extreme case. Many cases have been reported where the police just can't come up with something more relevant than, "Ok, we don't suspect you of a crime, but we're the police, so cough up anyway." THIS is the point of abuse and where foreigners (even those with permanent resident status) are not being given equal treatment under the law. Police cannot ask a citizen for his ID, but they sure come up with excuses to ask the foreigners.
 
orochi said:
So you think that people who disagree with having their fingerprints taken upon entry to Japan are selfish and want it better than the locals?
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For a "resident" yes,I think it is selfish. As for permanent residents, I believe they have displayed enough to show that they are in Japan for the good of the country, so no I partly disagree with the policy. But the important question is "do I want to kick up a fuss over it?" No I don't.
 
at least ,I was stopped by police about 5times in year for bycycle issue
.
I have an experience that i was stopped 2times in a day..

Police cannot ask a citizen for his ID
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they asked to show a things which my social status was certified.
I would show it as long as I did not anything bad.
The rental card of the video is not useful because it is not ID.
Because I showed it, it doesn't become my disadvantage at all..
There are a lot of disadvantages as for not showing....
And, they will harbor distrust...



these complaiment of foreigner deteriorate Japanese feelings though whether it is a legal rights or not.

it is merely a perverse person.
When such a complaint is read, honest and steady work of the police is understood. I will cooperate more because it is a trifling thing


btw fummy story.................


http://kenelwood.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/country-coppers/
 
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Just because you don't seem to care whether it is legally right or not, doesn't mean it isn't important when the issue is more serious or the police aren't following basic laws. When the police do not follow the law or twist it, foreigners ESPECIALLY have to be more careful because you know what? Racism and such does exist in Japan and the behavior of the police is one venue that is shown.

It is a trifle issue to you maybe, because you do not have to deal with the same aspects as someone who is a foreigner (or even a foreigner who became a citizen of Japan) does have to deal with.

If you don't have any problems, fine. Don't go telling everyone who has faces different issues due to their position to simply shut up about it if you haven't been in their shoes or didn't care about the issue in the first place.

When you see police not following their own laws or perverting them (a word you liked to use), then as a foreigner you BETTER watch out because by no means will you have a safe position legally from that point forward. That is why this thread exists, not for people to complain about "gaijin complaining" but to try to protect them because they ARE very often at a serious disadvantage in any incidents or meetings with the police.

In an attempt to try to get things refocused in the original direction and effort to help, how about this question. What DO you do if you run into a problem with a cop or someone who is clearly abusing their role, for example the cop that was stopping one of the poster over 100 times. How would you handle an issue like that? I would assume you can't just record video of an incident, they'd want you to turn that off, and your word against theirs wouldn't work well certainly.
 
How many times, KirinMan and Glenski, have you stopped by the cop for your last 10 years?
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Well, other than being in a line of cars, where everyone was getting checked for drunk driving.
ZERO

In the past 20 years, other than getting stopped for speeding.
ZERO
 
How did you come up with this expert opinion? Hearsay? Stop trying make that this is the only place that racism occurs, reality check please...

The guy was riding an unresgistered bike and they let him go in the end. What more do you want? Just b/c they were doing their job, however vigorously that was, it was still their job to get the truth. What people are failing to realise is that b/c you are not interigated like that at your own country does not mean that it will be the same here. And just for the record this interigation is not isolated to foriegners.


Did you not read casters post? He was stopped 5 times in a year and two times in one day. So like I have been saying all along, foriegners have a tendancy to blow things out of proportion b/c this is not what they are used to. Get used to it, b/c others have ruined it for the rest of us, you read the article, even that guy found stuff on the net that westerners were caught stealings bikes and that it was a problem.

Again , two Japanese citizens who have posted in this thread have stated that they have been pulled over while riding bikes. What more do you want, Japanese to change to constitution to one mirroring America or some other "free" country? Not implying that Japan is not a free country.

I don't know what the situation was actually like, but number one I would probably not be counting unless I was looking for trouble. Number Two, I would show my card every time I was asked, maybe have in pocket as to not take to much of my time. Number three, I would have ask my self is this story just another way of attracting attention to the cause and deliberately going out of their way to get stopped.


@orochi, found any stastistics on westerners Japanese speaking ability?
 
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You could photograph his badge number or photograph him (as Arudou did and as others have reported doing).
If you are stopped countless times as we have been talking about, I see no reason why you would be prohibited from filing a complaint (again, as Arudou tried).

As KirinMan pointed out, there are certain instances where there is nothing that can be done (but in his examples, they were valid checks as far as I can tell). However, it is the abuse of power that needs to be addressed, even if it affects just one person. Don't let it escalate if you can help it. So, even though a few rotten apples may have spoiled it for the rest of us, we don't always have to roll over and take it.
 

Can't agree here... ok, there may be some foreigners who want to be treated better than citizens, but I don't see any of them here (in this thread at least) and there are none that I know of in 'real life'. No, I see foreigners moaning about things which do only relate to non-citizens (eg fingerprinting, having to carry ID) or things which they mistakenly believe to relate only to non-citizens (eg the bicycle thing.)

I agree with you that the bicycle think is a misunderstanding. I believe most foreigners get agitated when stopped on their bike in Japan because it's likely that it has never happened to them in their home country, and therefore the immediate reaction is 'discrimination'. I've been stopped three times on my bike; once for the classic 'no light', and twice for the more serious riding two-up (my g/f sitting on the rear mudguard) - once while drunk (for which I could've been heavily fined.) Ironically, the only time the police actually checked the bike registration was when my g/f said it was her bike (which it was.) Anyway, each time the police were chatty and polite, I was let off, and I didn't have to whip out the dreaded alien card.


I can't believe you've actually been looking over the shoulders of people reading the news...! Therefore I infer that you're speculating.


Totally agree.
 
C'mon, Mike! How many people skip major sections of their home country newspapers to read what they want more urgently, be it the crossword puzzle, sports page, business page, etc.? You are being an unfair judge here.

Besides, how long did you actually look over people's shoulders to get such a random sampling?
 
Glenski said:
Besides, how long did you actually look over people's shoulders to get such a random sampling?
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I'm guessing Mike's sampling process here is pretty similar to Dave's sampling of the Japanese ability of Westerners living in Japan.
 
orochi said:
I'm guessing Mike's sampling process here is pretty similar to Dave's sampling of the Japanese ability of Westerners living in Japan.
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Yes and it is pretty much on the mark I think. Or is it that you have less ability than confidence in Judging someones Japanese ability?

I put it forward to you , find statistics that prove me wrong. If not then I have a pretty good yard stick to judge the Japanese ability among forienger "residents". (lets face it, "questionairs" only sample a segment, not the whole body)
Or are you going to side step this like you have done on other occasions. Starting to remind me of Emoni, b/c doesn't think it necessary to answer peoples questions either.

And Orochi for the record you have shown a great lack of experience in this thread, not once have stated a personal experience or something that has happened to you. Everything you have argued seems to be hear say. So it seems you are the one who is using an invalid method of sampling. I am begining to wonder how immersed you really are in this society. Do you speak Japanese? And don't go off on a tangent b/c you feel I attacking you b/c I am not, these are all perfectly reasonble questions.

This is all I could find on JREF.
A poll on how many Kanji people on this site know or who voted know. 45% only know up to 99 kanji. The next 10% know up to 200 kanji.
How many Kanji do you know?
Another poll and low and behold 70% have JLPT of level 4 or less,
Do you speak Japanese?

So far my estmates have pretty much been varified by at least these polls.

Your call Orochi...
 
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But the point is, is it as Rampant as everyone is making it out to be? And more to the point is it esclating? From my standpoint it is not. I am not saying take it up the you know what if power is being abused against you. I think Ashikaga said it earlier, if you have a problem see a lawyer.
 
FrustratedDave said:
But the point is, is it as Rampant as everyone is making it out to be?
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The more vocal and the victimized will probably say yes and/or that it doesn't matter (just that it exists often enough). Personally, despite my direct experience NOT having been persecuted or victimized, I think it is rampant enough.

And more to the point is it esclating? From my standpoint it is not.
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I couldn't say either way, and I am not as well-informed as Debito Arudou, but I'm sure he could quote you some figures (mostly in favor of the escalation, but that is just my guess because he is such a strong advocate). Even if it is not escalating, whether in intensity or in number of reports, the discrimination deserves to be fought, and I think you may agree with that. Your final statement gives me that impression, and I think it is as good general advice as any, but to also take the advice with a grain of salt, as some reports have shown that even a lawyer's help can be futile. (Case in point, translation in the courtroom.)

I am not saying take it up the you know what if power is being abused against you. I think Ashikaga said it earlier, if you have a problem see a lawyer.
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Thanks for keeping the discussion civil.
 
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