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western hypocrisy?

I would venture to say that there are some people who enter public service out of a duty and forthrightedness, but they are naive and do not last long. Maybe one term. They soon come to learn how the game is played and, if they do not play the game, they are not re-elected as their funding is cut off in favor of someone who may be tempted to "play the game" and, without funding from outside interests, one will NEVER be elected. Jesse Ventura proved that as did some other former governors, congressmen and women, and local elected officials.

If it was not greed or a lust for power, why on earth would someone spend millions of their own money for a position that pays far less than they would ever earn as a representative even if they spent 20 years there? Because they want to do good? HA! The truth be told, the perks of government service today far outweigh the millions they would spend to get elected and if they "play the game", they will reap far more than what they invested to get elected if they agree to vote this way or that way on a bill before congress or the senate. The lobbying power of the major corporations today and the funding and money under the table is far greater than anyone realizes.

Way too many voters today are so naive that they do not understand how people get elected and why the same person keeps getting elected when there is much proof that they are crooked. Besides, no one today gets elected to the senate unless they get the funding of the corporation lobbyests. Without that funding, there is NO CHANCE of getting elected and, to get that funding, one must do as they are told and to vote the way they are told for major bills. If their vote means nothing and the bill would be passed anyway, they can vote against it and then go back to the people and say, "Hey, I voted against such and such a bill (or tax)." The people will believe them and vote them back into power naively thinking they are doing good. In the future their vote may be needed, but most naive voters will not do the research and will not even know that their rep voted against their wishes, but will vote for them anyway based on political ads and such. That is how the game is played as those in power know how ignorant the voting population is and they depend on it.

An informed electorate is the biggest fear of any politician.

Therefore, if one does some research, one finds that the most powerful in politics today are not forthright, are indeed greedy and corrupt and are not there to do the people's bidding. They are their for their for their own gain and nothing more. And those that do try to do the right thing, like Congressman Ron Paul (R-Texas), they receive no help from their party, are ostracized and made to look like a nut and are only re-elected based on the good people who see the good they are trying to do.

As a matter of fact, the Republican party is so pissed at Ron Paul for not playing the game that they spent $1million in Texas to help a democrat get elected in his stead. How's that for politics? You can google it and find it for yourself, but it's a fact. Luckily he has enough believers that he was re-elected.

Therefore, noyhauser, those going in may want to do good and that is to be respected and admired, but they do not last long and the voting population fails to see the truth to weed out the good from the bad as they do no research whatsover and only believe what they are told on TV and in the news. Therefore, we have, both in Canada and the US, and Japan, the corrupt governments and people we have.

In modern politics 99% of the officials are there for their own greed and lust for power and nothing more. The hell with the people. "Let them eat cake."
 

I can't really reply with anything stronger than PachiPro already has. He's spent more time researching this and has a better knowledge base than I do, my opinions are admittedly supported by nothing more than the same media sources as anyone else plus a few, the only difference is I read it differently. But in so far as that goes, to put it succinctly....

...much like the US has been apt to create problems for itself to solve in the past, doesn't this retrenchment of relations on both sides seem like the perfect opportunity to call for overhauls that aim at strengthening, nay harmonizing border security? The war on terror has been the perfect political impetus for the US and neocon camp to do a lot of things worldwide, what makes US/Canadian relations any different? Short term loss for long term gain, look at the big picture.


Again, I can't come up with anything better off the top of my head than PachiPro has already posted. There is a fair amount of material available that if nothing else, lets us know that the threat is indeed real and not some kind of pipe dream or conspiracy theory. It's something that is neither confirmed nor deniable. That's at the very LEAST.

http://www.state.gov/e/eeb/rls/rm/2008/107598.htm

The US is clearly interested in sucking Canada dry of natural resources and under NAFTA Canada is not at liberty to scale back or control how much the US gets to buy. (The beauty of free trade). Again, you decide just where the line gets drawn between things being accurately definable as 'harmonized', or simply sovereign with a little free trade thrown in. It's really six of one and half a dozen of the other. These incremental steps are what's killing us, and these minor bureaucratic issues as you put them are what get discussed and quitely agreed on without a public vote at meetings like the SPP.



I don't doubt that the real story is out there. My point was that you won't find it in any major media outlets or publications.



This goes both ways. The only difference is the government gets to throw the weight of officiality and finality behind their BS, while other perceived 'BS' doesn't get a last word at all. It's the reason why many still think the magic bullet theory is plausible. There's a lot of riffraff on the internet for sure, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.


If that's in fact true, that you read and put effort into understanding the personal and private motivations of individual politicians in order to understand the motivations behind their actions and support for certain policies en route to a fuller understanding of history, then the reason why the US currently has a worldwide military empire should come as no surprise to you. Neither should the way in which the current war on terror fits into the big picture, and neither should the connection between Desert Storm, the 90's, Bush Sr., Jr., i.e. the Bush family, the Bin Ladens, Cheney and Haliburton. All of this was at one point or another reported in the press, albeit in small, disjointed page 9 corner blocs. No one really paid attention to it. But the information is out there, look it up on any website, or watch any number of documentaries available online or at an independent video store. People have caught wind of and synthesized this information. As far as political motivations go its all quite clear.


Tit for tat. People will be apt to quote the sources that support their claims, I'm not sure that's anything new under the sun.
Everything you wrote after that was pointless pontification.
 

So people are ignorant. Did you ever consider the fact that you might be more ignorant than others? The best we can do is to examine the evidence we have and evaluate it. I've tried to do that over and over in this thread. You have done nothing of the sort, as you're about to see again in the following reply.


In short, yes.

So you cite a study by the CFR. Its a study, which advocates something. It doesn't mean it will happen or that people will accept it. This is just a think piece, proposing something to show that an alternate way is possible. It doesn't mean its going to happen; typically they don't.

Still you ignore the fact that EVERY single indicator shows north american integration has been decreasing over the past decade. Next spring you're going to need a passport to get into the United States. Each day more checkpoints are being established along the border and security measures are increasing. And you have influential members of congress calling for MORE to be done. Yet there is an economic reality here, an Mexican thinktank estimated that border inefficiencies cost the US and Mexican economy 40 billion dollars a year; not exactly chump change. The whole reason why a CFR did a study was to mitigate some of these problems which have crept up since 9-11. It doesn't mean its going to happen, particularly when most of american wants MORE restrictions on the borders, not less; and they are getting them. How you can go and say there is going to be a North American Union, when the majority of Americans want mexican workers out of the country and walls to be erected is beyond me.

Thats the reality.


Are we all making this stuff up and believing crap that really doesn't exist? Or, do we just have a better handle on what is going around us than others and trying to spread the word to the "handicapped individuals" and the ignorant?

Seriously, given all the times I've shown your arguments to be absolutely false, I can't believe you'd even begin to claim you "have a better handle on whats going on." You're not even responding to many of my posts, you're just talking through them.


This is exactly the utter crap you spew forth. First off your contention is false, you have a wide range of ownership in the media industry illustrated by the Canadian Broadcast Corporation the Christian Science Monitor and the Washington Post. The first is State owned and highly independent, The second one is a trust, and the third is owned by a single family that has few other interests. Hardly what you would call the "oldest wealthiest families." The same goes for the Manchester Guardian, one of the most successful news companies in the world today because it is free.

I politely ignored it because its a quote from 1910 because its one quote and one perspective. Thats not proof of anything. You don't know anything about the context the speech was given, or what his actual perspective was. You're just using it as proof. Yet there have been serious changes in society that make the two claims suspect. Media has changed as have society in the last 40 years. Journalistic integrity has changed, certainly for the better, partly because of the societal changes in the 1960s. No trend better illustrates this than the coverage of Vietnam by people like Neil Sheenan and David Halberstam, or Watergate by Woodward and Bernstein. Moreover the proliferation in media "eyes" because of the internet has just added even more accountability to the mix.

Most of the journalists I know today are driven by a personal commitment to getting the truth out. As I said earlier, they often risk life and limb to do so. Editing does change the message somewhat, but its less than you would suspect. And if anything, Scandal and intrigue sell, so having more of it actually increases the profitability of news organizations.



Oh seriously? If anything you're the one who lives in the cocoon. I've travelled to many of the places you've talked about, and spoken to the people you consistently denigrate. All you do in these posts is come up with poor evidence or no evidence to back up your points. You stab at shadows in your posts with vague theories and even vaguer evidence. I can point to hard evidence and concrete explanations.


Actually you're proving mine. Newspapers are sued for libel all the time, though moreso in European States than in the United States because of the 1st amendment. You see it all the time in Europe on a whole range of issues. You see similar issues in Canada, recently with the depiction of muslims. So yes there are legal limits on what can be published in Canada/

Another point debunked.



Spoken like a person who knows nothing about the reality of politics. Its astounding to me that you can come on here and say that you're an arbiter of truth when you say such a thing. The people that I know personally would laugh you out of the room for claiming such a thing. Part of the problem with public service is that it doesn't have competitive rates, that good people with real ability don't enter into government because its not lucrative enough for them. They can make far more working in the private sector, with far less stress.

So why do people work for government, whether it be in the public service or as a politician? Many, if not most do it because they feel they have a sense duty to the public. That may encompass a whole range of perspectives about what the public good may entail. Its somewhat the same reason why people serve in the military. You don't go into the military for making money; most do it to protect the loved ones and the country. ITs a duty to a higher purpose.

Thats not to say that people don't do it for egoism or other forms of self engrandisement. You have to be self assured and often possess a predatory sense to be effective. And yes understanding the system is a key part. Much of it requires "horse trading" to get your way on some issues. Politics is a difficult profession. You have entrenched interests, with often contradictory aims. One of the finest books I've ever read that describes this process is Eric Raymond's book "The Dance of Legislation." I'm not saying its pretty. Its tough, the impetus is for no action to occur. Some might balk at how difficult it is to get some sort of movement, but many appreciate it, and work for the small victories that are in their interests.

However its not about making yourself rich, by a long shot; you don't go into public service for money. And corruption doesn't exist in the same ways as it did. Corruption was far more widespread in the past, partly because people could get away with it due to the lack of oversight. However the rules have changed significantly since the 1960s, and corruption is nowhere near where it was. Government has just become that much more transparent in the last few decades. Even personal lives of public servants are no longer held as sacrosanct.

Seriously though, I suggest you go and really talk to people who do what they do and get to know them before launching your lazy claims about people's behavior. You did it about journalists and now politicians. You've shown no understanding about these things, except a willingness not to move out of your little cognitive world where everything is bad and that you're the arbiter of truth.
 
It's not a study or "thinkpiece". It's a blueprint and the pieces are being slowly put into place.

How you can go and say there is going to be a North American Union, when the majority of Americans want mexican workers out of the country and walls to be erected is beyond me.
If that were the case, as you cite, then the boarders of the US with Mexico and Canada would have been sealed on 9/12. Americans can yell and shout all they want, as they have been doing, that they want Mexicans out of the country and walls erected, yadda, yadda, yadda, but I guarantee it will NEVER happen or it would have already begun. No how, no way, will it happen. That's the reality. Besides, "they" have Americans sidetracked today with the massive loss of jobs and industry and the fact that they may be losing their homes in the near future. Who can think about anything else or even fight it? They have far more serious things to worry about right now and that's when it will happen.

Seriously, given all the times I've shown your arguments to be absolutely false, I can't believe you'd even begin to claim you "have a better handle on whats going on." You're not even responding to many of my posts, you're just talking through them.
You have NOT shown my arguments to be false. You have only responded with automaton thinking as you have been taught and with mainstream quotes and views and it's very difficult to debate someone who refuses to think, or even look, outside the box and consider other sources or that all they have been taught over the years maybe, just maybe, has been mistruths and misleading you think only one way. I don't know.

However, considering your youth and the fact that I have twice the experience as yourself I can understand it. Maybe when you get to my age or when it becomes a reality you might come around.
You may come to understand some day that any state owned media is NOT FREE! Never has been and never will be. A state run media will only print and say what the state wants them to or they would be out of business. The quote I cited may go back 50 odd years, but take this quote in 1987:

Or this one:
"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and nations will accept the New World Order." David Rockefeller
Or how about these two from the most powerful man in the world:
ツ" And David Rockefeller said in his memoirs:

Read his books and you will see that I am not spewing falshoods or "utter crap" as you put it. I'm just repeating what they have said in their own words, nothing more. However, you seem to be a product of the exact education system as in this quote,
ツ"In our dreams we have limitless resources and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding handsツ…ツ" A representative of the Rockefeller General Education Board

I'm sure they're smiling at their success when they read your replies to my "nutty" and "lunatic fringe" posts. But that's ok as I understand exactly why you believe and think the way you do and respect you for at least standing up to what you believe the truth, as you see it, is.

And as far as what I said about politics and those getting into it, I still have no logical reason why someone would spend several million dollars to get a job that pays a sum they will never recover, ever. A little more reading and research on your part and you too will discover that the vast majority of politicians only get in for the benefits of the lobbiests and the money to be made from them and the major corporations for "voting the right way". Nothing more. Sure, as I stated, some do it for all the right reasons, but this is not 100 years ago and they do not last long unless they have the intestinal fortitude of Ron Paul. Things have changed for the worse. Just read Jesse Ventura's book on what he discovered about politics. He had very good intentions at the start, but soon discovered the cold, hard facts and truth about what politics and "public service" entails.


Please don't preach to me about the societal changes of the 60's as I lived it! You only read the false truths about it. Back then people said that when they got to the position of power that they would change things and when they got there they were sucked in by the greed and corruption of the halls of power. Nothing changed and it only got worse. Do a little research into the real watergate and the real reporting on the Vietnam War by the media and the reasons for their stance and you will see that it was a ruse to bring Nixon down and out of power engineered by Henry Kissinger who taped his meetings without Nixon's knowledge and then leaked it to the media, taking down a president and making him the second most powerful person in the world today and the puppet Ford was placed in without even an election to do the bidding of those in real power. That was the beginning of the downfall of the US and it began with the decimation of the steel industries.

There's not enough time or room here for all the details, but look and you shall find the truth. The real truth. But I somehow feel you will not peer into the telescope or notice the man behind the curtain because then all you have been taught and led to believe may just traumatize you and your neat little view of the world will dramatically change and we all know how it is proved that people do not like change or to be informed that what they believe is not the truth. But I do not fault you as you are a product of the system. And a good one at that. Much as I was myself. I too would've vehemently argued with someone who posted what I have here 20 years ago and said they were wrong and nutty, and I did! until I decided to check it out further much to my chagrin.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree as further debate will lead nowhere and see what the outcome is in the next few years. I may be completely wrong, but recent events are pointing to the fact that what I am reading and researching is more the truth however farfetched and "nutty" it may seem to others. That's what makes forums fun!

And as far as "Western Hypocracy" goes, I suggest you and anyone interested, read Zibignew Brezenski's book "The Grand Chessboard" or as my copy's title is, "The Eurasian Chessboard", to better understand exactly what is going on in Eurasia and the Middle East today. Brezenski is the premier globalist today and is advisor to many of the nations top leaders and shakers. If you do nothing more, read the Wikipedia entry and the comments from those that have read the book. It was written 10 years ago, but the pieces are being moved as we read and write and debate. Some look at him as satan while others look at him as a genius.

I will comment on this book in later posts as I'm still reading it, especially on what he has to say about Japan's role in the coming new world order. Some may still think I'm a nut, but that's ok as it is already written and I'm just relaying that for those that don't know.
 

That's all writing on the wall to me. Make a problem, produce the solution, oldest trick in the book. Think of it in the same light as pre-9/11 intelligence that was conveniently ignored. Is it so hard to see things in the big picture? The US has more bases of operation worldwide than before, is arming more of its allies, has increased security world wide wherever it can (fingerprinting and picture taking at the Japanese border anyone?), and now some of it is happening at the US/Canada border. These aren't mutually exclusive changes, most of the changes have been instigated from the American side as a part of their almighty 'war on terror'. The war on terror clearly has a purpose and a goal. To say that all this grief at the border isn't somehow manufactured by the US for long-term gain is as ignorant as saying they're really in Iraq to help the Iraqi people.

A lot of your arguments against the idea of North American integration point strictly to the notion that the above is occurring, that things are becoming thicker and more entrenched rather than wide open. Again, the facts are there and they're open to interpretation. You cannot lay claim to having the truth anymore than I or Pachipro can. You're entitled to your opinion.

I also think whatever wealth of experience and knowledge you have directly of the public sector is probably limited to A) Canadian politics, which is a joke, and B) not exactly the upper ranks where money and power actually changes hands. I'm sure you'll come back with a flowery rebuke and a list of your credentials but honestly, this is what I'm lead to believe since you ignore with a straight face the amount of money that changes hands in, say, American politics (and still to a lesser degree in Canadian politics) and all the bloated corruption that takes place there.

I too know people in the public sector (at my age, that would be people's fathers) and I would agree that most get into it in order to effect change and do good. But really, those aren't the people Pachipro is talking about I'd wager. How many infrastructure contracts got doled out to American firms in Iraq after the war? How much of big oil's money is behind McCain Palin at the moment? How big a bail-out are the big-3 automakers going to get no matter who they support in the election? How much did Mulroney get away with again? How much did Chretien piss away in Quebec? How much do Lockheed Martin and G&E get every time there's a war? Even the separate schoolboard in Toronto was hit with misappropriation allegations. The little guys trying to get money for swimming pools in their communities are probably not directly involved in all this but those aren't the people we're talking about.
 

I think the big difference between Japan and America is that we recognize that genralizations of outsiders is present where japan seems to ignore it. We have worked twords fixing that problem. Unfortunatly it will never completly dissapear. In a country with thousands of different nationalities, you are going to have small groups of racist people. The medial likes to take these small groups and generalize the whole population with them. I think there is more understanding in the US then there is in japan. That is the big difference. You can not fix a problem until you admit there is one first. That is the first step.
 
Why are we talking about this? Both view points are dangerous. The truth must be seen by all. We can all complain or do something about it.
 
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