Vote Of Confidence

[lexico]

Thats the problem Lex, the admin in question reviewed what should have been private comments (rep comments) without a complaint being made.

Technically a complaint did exist if I understood correctly; from member Maciamo to admin Maciamo. I believe a reasonable person can separate what pertains to office from what to the person. I don't see why that would be technically impossible.

He had to snoop though their comments (which he admitted isn't something he usually does) to find out they were talking about him and then publicised their comments.

It could be argued that the ganging up from behind spilled over; giving enough cause to begin an investigation. A small organisation such as Jref might not be able to maintain a full fledged power structure that separates administration, legislation, and law enforcement. Given the limitation, why would taking reasonable measures caused by a breach of forum principles become a cause of caustic response ?

 

[PopCulturePooka]

Technically a complaint did exist if I understood correctly; from member Maciamo to admin Maciamo. I believe a reasonable person can separate what pertains to office from what to the person. I don't see why that would be technically impossible.
It could be argued that the ganging up from behind spilled over; giving enough cause to begin an investigation. A small organisation such as Jref might not be able to maintain a full fledged power structure that separates administration, legislation, and law enforcement. Given the limitation, why would taking reasonable measures caused by a breach of forum principles become a cause of caustic response ?

Refer to my more recent post.

While he had a complaint, he had to abuse an admin privelage to do so, made it public, and will likely not make the option to review rep comments open for everyone.

Eg I have a fair assumption that their are negative comments about me made from some users to others. Can I have access to the user comments logs to check this? Can I then call out the offenders publically? Can I remove those comments and thus strip the members of reputation?

I would certainly like to have that option so I can better handle personal dislikes.

 

[Brooker]

In the thread that started this whole debate someone mentioned something about their reputation points changing. My first thought as a moderator was to investigate that persons reputation record to see why that might have been, and then, just as Maciamo did, I saw the negative comments made about him.

And no, you as a member don't get the ability to view people's rep comments. That's something moderators do. Are you able to go into all the rooms at work that the company owner can go into?

As for him "publicizing" those comments, all he did was mention them. I don't see how your privacy was invaded. If you thought your rep comments were private, you were mistaken, and it isn't an abuse of power for those comments to be reviewed. And, although we don't make a habit of checking them often, we really don't require "probable cause" to do so.

 

[PopCulturePooka]

I would like to request formally that all comments regarding me in anyones rep comments be reviewed please. Could you also kindly mention which people made those comments and remove some of the rep from them?

 

[Brooker]

I would like to request formally that all comments regarding me in anyones rep comments be reviewed please. Could you also kindly mention which people made those comments and remove some of the rep from them?

A member cannot make such a request. Now that you know that rep comments aren't private, you can conduct your repping accordingly. Would you send a derogatory note to a coworker about your boss if you knew your boss would have access to that note? Feel free to speak ill of moderators and administrators in PMs if you wish.

Also, if your rep went down, it may be because Maciamo or another member gave you negative rep based on your comments, something all members have the ability to do.

 

[Davey]

im happy to be a donator, i can see who give me rep

 

[PopCulturePooka]

In the thread that started this whole debate someone mentioned something about their reputation points changing. My first thought as a moderator was to investigate that persons reputation record to see why that might have been, and then, just as Maciamo did, I saw the negative comments made about him.

And no, you as a member don't get the ability to view people's rep comments. That's something moderators do. Are you able to go into all the rooms at work that the company owner can go into?

As for him "publicizing" those comments, all he did was mention them. I don't see how your privacy was invaded. If you thought your rep comments were private, you were mistaken, and it isn't an abuse of power for those comments to be reviewed. And, although we don't make a habit of checking them often, we really don't require "probable cause" to do so.

He did in fact post at least one comment from Mikecash.

See it here:

https://jref.com/forum/showpost.php?p=269210&postcount=101

Tell me this.

Are any of the comments made between the guys in question against the tules of Reputation as laid down here:
Obsolete - "Reputation Points" : RULES

These rules do not state that gossip about others is against the rules and for all we know the comments were made in accordance with these two provisos:

- was well-written or funny enough to deserve recognition
- express exactly what was in your mind (i.e. agree completely)

Especially the later.

If no rules of Reputation giving were broken, and the comments were given out for reasons set out above, why did Maciamo even need to read through them, let alone make a post stating the members do this and actually posting a comment?

The only thing that comes close is:
However, I do not think that jokes or articles copied and pasted from other sites deserve any reputation points, however good they are. Personal contribution is what matters.

However Mac only says he THINKS. Its his opinion. He has not set down that repping someone on jokes is against the rules.

As the rules for Rep are currently published, the guys did nothing wrong.

Why were they investigated and publically accused?

 

[Brooker]

He never said the comments made in the rep points were against any rules. As for Maciamo's motivation for reading those comments, I already mentioned that reading them came to my mind while reading that thread because it had been brought up, but it really doesn't matter what his motivation was. The fact is, all moderators and administrators can review reputation comments at their leisure if they wish. So if there's something there you'd rather other people not read, don't put it there. Once again, if it's privacy you crave, try a PRIVATE MESSAGE (aka PM). You could even give the person positive rep and leave the reason blank, then send them a private message detailing why you gave them that rep, if you'd rather keep the reason private.

 

[jeisan]

btw, before it spread out even more, because a lot of people are starting to talk about Admins reading PM's... is there any good proof that they do this? yes or no? .... no... stop spreading it... yes.. show us! ...

admins and mods cant do anything more someone elses PM than a regular member.
they cannot read anyones PMs, or reply to them or anything else a paranoid mind might think up.
in case the point was missed, this means the only person that can read a PM is the member its sent to.
they are called private messages for a reason.

 

[ArmandV]

Why don't the principals involved stand down for a few days for a cooling off period and after that, try to resolve their disputes in a private chat?

 

[Maciamo]

Thats the problem Lex, the admin in question reviewed what should have been private comments (rep comments) without a complaint being made.

1) can't the complain come from myself ? Do you think I should have ask a moderator to check it for me ?

2) nowhere is it mentioned that admins and mods need to file a complaint, for the obvious reason stated above.

 

[Maciamo]

When "disciplining" and "punishing" members for "personally offending" you and "poking holes" in your threads has anything to do with being a good admin I, and I'm sure Thomas, are opposed to that brand of leadership.

We are not talking about 'personal offending" but name-calling (as explained here regarding mikecash) and dishonest comments (as explained in post #128, but you should read all of mikecash's replies to understand what it is about).

 

[Akakubisan]

I think some people aren't seeing that this topic referred to one person and not all admin/moderators.

Based on how I read the topic/post I voted yes. If it was referring to all I would have voted no.

By reading many of the posts by Maciamo (I read more today, especially from the one listed by mikecash) I find his responses to other people condecending and imature. Not something I would look for in an admin.

Whatever happens, it won't really affect me, I have pretty much given up reading any of Maciamo's posts.
If he ever gets off his high horse I might start paying attention to what he says again.

James

 

[Maciamo]

Eg I have a fair assumption that their are negative comments about me made from some users to others. Can I have access to the user comments logs to check this? Can I then call out the offenders publically? Can I remove those comments and thus strip the members of reputation?

I would certainly like to have that option so I can better handle personal dislikes.

Well, if you have any doubt about some particular members plotting together against you, and giving each others good rep points for every message that hurts you, then just let me or another team member know, and we will check it for you. Not everyone may agree, but I believe that such plots should be publicly denounced for the good of the forum.

'Reputation' implies a righteous and honourable conduct. It is alright to give good rep. points to someone you agree with when they rationally rebutted someone. But I don't think it is very praiseworthy or honourable to give positive rep. to someone who wrote a flaming, hateful or overly rude message, and even less to congratulate them on "hurting the other member's feeling" - as was the case here, although I only made public one of a long series of such reputation comments between mikecash, silverpoint, Gaijin 06 and others. If I had really wanted to be personal and emotional on this issue, I would have posted all their bad-mouthing about me or other members, with the date and post to which they
refer for increased sensation.

 

[Maciamo]

By reading many of the posts by Maciamo (I read more today, especially from the one listed by mikecash) I find his responses to other people condecending and imature. Not something I would look for in an admin.

Whatever happens, it won't really affect me, I have pretty much given up reading any of Maciamo's posts.
If he ever gets off his high horse I might start paying attention to what he says again.

James, I see you've just joined the forum 2 months ago. You certainly haven't read many of my posts and don't really know me. The thread "English-friendly Japan" was only the culminations of long tensions between myself and the gang in question (especially Silverpoint and mikecash). You probably haven't read how often Silverpoint picked on me in random threads.

In less than 24h, he had managed to provoke me here. here and here.

His tactic is usually to try to make a reference to my tone or IQ/intelligence and describe me as arrogant and condescending. This may be true toward him, mikecash or today also Gaijin 06, but in response to their constant teasing. You joined the discussion in the wrong place (in the "English-friendly Japan") at the wrong time, when I was already on the defensive and a bit irritated.

I only mentioned once about my IQ to Kinsao, and silverpoint visibly didn't like it. His first reply was to liken me to a Nazi. He then posted inflaming comments about my having "serious personality issues" in the thread about the "uninhibited island" started by Dutch Baka, which was deleted by another team member (I wish it was still there as a proof, but I guess it was the right choice not to keep that offtopic and inflaming comment).

 

[Akakubisan]

I have actually been here since 9/1/2004, more than a year. And I have been reading posts for longer than that. I have actually had time to post lately.
I will read the items you listed above and look into othe posts as well.

I still feel you are condescending in many of your replies to anybody who does not agree with you.

 

[Maciamo]

I would like to request formally that all comments regarding me in anyones rep comments be reviewed please.

That's not possible. You have to point out names. It is impossible to search what comments were made in reference to you to any of the 13,000+ members of the forum. For example, if X member (who maybe hasn't participated to the thread) were to give someone else than you rep. points in this thread, and write something like "this guy you argue with really sucks !", and that the "guy" in question was you, but that this was only apparent after reading the thread in question. How could we possibly find it. Note that my name (Maciamo) was never mentioned in the plot in question, but it was clear from the rep comment and the message to which it was given that it was about me. How can we possibly find out such messages, even were we to check all comments given to all 13,000+ members ? That's just impossible. I alone have received hundreds of rep. comments. Checking which thread it refers to, etc. would take hours just for a member like me. It would takes months for all the members of this forum.

So if you don't say clearly "check whether X has given Y reputation points about Z post with a comment bad-mouthing on me", it will be difficut to find out. My intuition was right about mikecash, silverpoints et al. I found immediately what I suspected about the posts I had in mind.

Could you also kindly mention which people made those comments and remove some of the rep from them?

We can only edit offensive rep. comments given to you on your request - and maybe warn or punish the offending member if necessary.

We don't change reputation points, except in case of blatant abuse (e.g. if one person were to give bad rep to anyone for no reason, or, as mentioned in the rules, for asking other members to "exchange" rep. points).

 

[DoctorP]

That's not possible. You have to point out names. It is impossible to search what comments were made in reference to you to any of the 13,000+ members of the forum. For example, if X member (who maybe hasn't participated to the thread) were to give someone else than you rep. points in this thread, and write something like "this guy you argue with really sucks !", and that the "guy" in question was you, but that this was only apparent after reading the thread in question. How could we possibly find it. Note that my name (Maciamo) was never mentioned in the plot in question, but it was clear from the rep comment and the message to which it was given that it was about me. How can we possibly find out such messages, even were we to check all comments given to all 13,000+ members ? That's just impossible. I alone have received hundreds of rep. comments. Checking which thread it refers to, etc. would take hours just for a member like me. It would takes months for all the members of this forum.

So if you don't say clearly "check whether X has given Y reputation points about Z post with a comment bad-mouthing on me", it will be difficut to find out. My intuition was right about mikecash, silverpoints et al. I found immediately what I suspected about the posts I had in mind.

So you honestly still don't see anything wrong with what you did? Any regular member can not do what you did, but instead would have to go through a third party! You have to be able to differentiate yourself when you are a) a regular poster, and b)an admin. You can not be both at all times...it takes away from your ability to remain honest and nuetral.

Do you not think that you overreacted by handing down punishment because your feelings were hurt?

I can't do the same thing if you hurt my feelings now can I? If you hurt my feelings and you are the admin what am I to do? Do you think that people would feel comfortable coming to you now with a problem...do you think that they trust you? You and Thomas have built this site and I for one enjoy it...that is why I come back. But...I think that you really should step back and look at things outside of your little box. One thing I have noticed about your personality is that you are unable (or unwilling) to view things from other peoples perspective. That is a very important trait of a good leader. You do not have to agree, but at least be able to look at things the way that they see them...especially before handing down punishments... Of course that is just my opinion!

 

[Maciamo]

So you honestly still don't see anything wrong with what you did? Any regular member can not do what you did, but instead would have to go through a third party! You have to be able to differentiate yourself when you are a) a regular poster, and b)an admin. You can not be both at all times...it takes away from your ability to remain honest and nuetral.

Do you not think that you overreacted by handing down punishment because your feelings were hurt?

As I said, my intuition was right. I checked silverpoint's reputation comments first on an honest suspicion of abuse, as in my opinion, he has mostly posted offensive messages since he joined 4 months ago, and yet has 7 "green balls". After seeing who gave him points for what posts, I had to check whether it was a conspiracy against me by those members (yes, including you, although you are not the worst, which is why I had intentionally left out your name in the "and others" part in the above post).

I can't do the same thing if you hurt my feelings now can I? If you hurt my feelings and you are the admin what am I to do? Do you think that people would feel comfortable coming to you now with a problem...do you think that they trust you?

I am not the only one with such powers. There are two other admins and 9 moderators.

But...I think that you really should step back and look at things outside of your little box. One thing I have noticed about your personality is that you are unable (or unwilling) to view things from other peoples perspective.

I know everytime I say this some people call me arrogant and condescending, but I do generally understand other people's point of view. This does not mean that I agree with it. Usually when arguing harshly with someone (like Silverpoint or Gaijin 06), they are the ones who do not understand my point of view, and tha is what is creating problems. I think I have said that before a few months ago, but when I argue with my wife (or my mother, or sister or anybody close to me) and the argument wo't end, it is always them who cannot understand my point of view rather than the reverse. How can I claim that ? How do I know that I am not the one to completely misunderstand them ? No, it's not because of my superior intelligence as Silverpoint likes to repeat. Everytime an argument goes one for hours and my explaining in tens of different ways won't make the other side understand, they usually end up saying that "I don't understand them". So, to show them that this is not true, I explain exactly what their point of view on the issue is, and they (my relatives) are always suprised that indeed it is exactly what they mean, and often couldn't have expressed it better. So why the argument ? Because I disagree with that point of view, and just try to make them understand my point of view (even if they still disagree afterwards). Usually, it is futile. There are things that some people will never understand, no matter how close they are to you, and how well they supposedly know you.

I felt very much like that in the argument with GaijinPunch and Gaijin 06 in the English-friendly Japan. With Mikecash it is another issue. He likes to belittle my efforts in many threads. Why should he says things like that ? Then, as he was losing the argument against me, he became more aggressive and started with the personal insults.

I think you also did not understand why I compared Japan to European countries regarding the "English-friendliness". You said :

Might I point out that you no longer live in Europe! (by your own choice I believe!)

I found this remark irrelevant to the thread. In fact, I didn't understand why you would say that at first (Mike's comment gave me a clue).

But this forum is about both Japan (Japan Reference) and Europe (Eupedia), I have lived in both places, write about both places, like cultural or political comparisons (which is one of the most interesting thing about experiencing life in different countries), and decided to make such a comparison in a thread I started on that very purpose after noticing how many more Japanese government and media websites were translated in English compared to European ones.

So I was surprised by your comment, but an explanation was enough. Yet, mikecash called all my comparisons of Japan with European countries "amazing[ly] tedious and tiresome". And I felt it was not just meant for this thread but dozens of threads with such comparisons (houses, political systems, cultures, etc.). It's a shame to belong to a forum about Japan and Europe and write things like that, just because he doesn't give a damn about Europe (where has the respect gone ?).

 

[Mycernius]

What a fine example some of you are setting for new members. I have read the threads in question and the shrapnel that has come from these threads. I find a lot of the grievences could have been settled in PMs, which has been mentioned on several occassion cannot be seen by staff. Instead people have decided to air their dirty laundry out in the open. I find it disrespectable for anyone to do this, admin or regular members, to resort to name calling and acting like school children in a playground. I have only had one problem with Maciamo since I have joined this forum. After PMing him, it turned out to be a language problem and was resolved very quickly. While Maciamo can come across as condescening in some of his posts, one of the problems, which he has admittied himself, is that English is not his first language. There are subtle phrases in English that can cause problems for non-native speakers. Another problem is that because of the medium used for comunication, the written word, sarcasm, irony and subtle wit can be easily mistaken for acidic comments. I am not defending him in everything. there have been occassions when he can be inflexible on subjects and seem to be unable to see the others point of view. I do the same thing and other people on this forum are also guilty of this. We hold our opinions very dear to us. When someone disagrees with them we can get very worked up and angry about it. Some will fire off a post there and then. This can then start a flame war because peoples egos will not step down on the issues that have arisen from that one post. I suggest that everyone should sit back and think before they post. This is in public domain and some things written down can easily be taken as liable by the wrong person. I think the thread that started this should be locked by a moderator, as it is turning into a flame war rather than a discussion. All people involved should take their grievences into PMs or learn to back down from a subject that will only get more and more insulting, that will end up driving members away.

EDIT: I forgot to say. I voted No

 

[mad pierrot]

There was alot of baiting going on....

Why some people are still surprised after all the words leading up to this is beyond me.


Hey, at least we're being civil now.
I don't see any out of hand actions now, so my general advice would be everyone chill out, go cool off, have a cheese burger or something.

 

[Maciamo]

While Maciamo can come across as condescening in some of his posts, one of the problems, which he has admittied himself, is that English is not his first language. There are subtle phrases in English that can cause problems for non-native speakers.

I've just thought about this now, but could it be that the way of saying things in French (which is usually more formal both in structure and vocabulary) gives an impression of "condescence" ? About half of the words in the English language come from French (or Latin), and these are almost always the most formal ones. Likewise, the controversial rule that a sentence should not be terminated by a preposition (e.g. using "to whom I talk" instead of "who I talk to") also comes from French. I certainly use them more often than the average native English speakers.

In general, the tone used in daily life by native French speakers may sound arrogant and condescending to speakers of other languages. That's a notable cultural difference that I have explained in the thread European cultures : The French.

Then, the connotation of a same word in French and English can be very different. Words like "commence", "consume", "comprehend" or "reflect" are not formal in French (just normal), while they are formal in English. "Mentality" can have a negative connotation with some native English speakers, but never in French. On the other hand, anally retentive would be s serious insult in French, but was used by Silverpoint as if it was just a normal word.

 

[Glenn]

I voted "no."

The only problem, and one which I must remind people to consider before voting, is that there is a possibility the admin in question will abuse his powers to see which way individual voters chose to vote.

Just so you know, if you don't decide to make the poll public there is no way that anyone will know how anyone else voted unless the voter says so. In this case, the poll is not public. If it were, it was say "be advised this is a public poll. Other members will be able to see how you vote." So if anyone is worried about admin/moderators being able to see how they vote, don't worry -- we can't.

 

[ArmandV]

I've just thought about this now, but could it be that the way of saying things in French (which is usually more formal both in structure and vocabulary) gives an impression of "condescence" ? About half of the words in the English language come from French (or Latin), and these are almost always the most formal ones. Likewise, the controversial rule that a sentence should not be terminated by a preposition (e.g. using "to whom I talk" instead of "who I talk to") also comes from French. I certainly use them more often than the average native English speakers.

In general, the tone used in daily life by native French speakers may sound arrogant and condescending to speakers of other languages. That's a notable cultural difference that I have explained in the thread European cultures : The French.

Then, the connotation of a same word in French and English can be very different. Words like "commence", "consume", "comprehend" or "reflect" are not formal in French (just normal), while they are formal in English. "Mentality" can have a negative connotation with some native English speakers, but never in French. On the other hand, anally retentive would be s serious insult in French, but was used by Silverpoint as if it was just a normal word.

I think you've nailed it. Whereas a phrase in one language may be just everyday talk and doesn't mean anything, in other languages it may seem to be fightin' words.

Frankly, I think the thread that started all of this should have been immediately closed once things got out of hand. I also agree with one of the previous posts that an adminstrator/moderator should not become embroiled in discussion threads in order to maintain neutrality. He/she can come up with interesting topics (as you have), but step back and see where the discussion leads. Only step in if the discussion becomes a flame war.

I am not going to vote as I don't see it as leading to any positive solution.

 

[Elizabeth]

I know everytime I say this some people call me arrogant and condescending, but I do generally understand other people's point of view. This does not mean that I agree with it. Usually when arguing harshly with someone (like Silverpoint or Gaijin 06), they are the ones who do not understand my point of view, and tha is what is creating problems. I think I have said that before a few months ago, but when I argue with my wife (or my mother, or sister or anybody close to me) and the argument wo't end, it is always them who cannot understand my point of view rather than the reverse. How can I claim that ? How do I know that I am not the one to completely misunderstand them ? No, it's not because of my superior intelligence as Silverpoint likes to repeat. Everytime an argument goes one for hours and my explaining in tens of different ways won't make the other side understand, they usually end up saying that "I don't understand them". So, to show them that this is not true, I explain exactly what their point of view on the issue is, and they (my relatives) are always suprised that indeed it is exactly what they mean, and often couldn't have expressed it better. So why the argument ? Because I disagree with that point of view, and just try to make them understand my point of view (even if they still disagree afterwards). Usually, it is futile. There are things that some people will never understand, no matter how close they are to you, and how well they supposedly know you.

There is no doubt you can "listen" and repeat back what your sparring partners have said....whether this translates into genuine 'understanding' on a human and empathic level (ie willingness to let disagreements stand without constantly resorting to childish vindictiveness and a policy of vengence) I think is CCI's basic point.

I'm starting to think maybe there is an inverse relationship between a person's level of accomplishment or intelligence to sociability, insecurity, need to show off and, most bizarrely, hypersensitivity to signs of disrespect in the very people they claim to have been mercilessly taunted by.

But as mad pierrot said, if we didn't realize this before, nothing is going to change now...