Trouble with a phrase

Glenn · 12 Nov 2004

I came across this sentence on Yahoo!Japan and I'm having trouble with the highlighted part:

新潟県中越地震の影響により、日本通運、福山通運による新潟県中越地方での集荷および配達に遅れが生じていたり、集荷、配送を中止しているところがあります。

My understanding of the sentence is this: "Due to the effects of the earthquake in Chuuetsu, Niigata prefecture, shipping in Japan; gathering of goods in the Chuuetsu region, Niigata prefecture by shipping in Fukuyama(???); and delivery are delayed, and there are cases where shipping of baggage is cancelled." Er, not all that great. I'm having problems understanding what the phrase means, so the parsing is obviously a problem. I can't seem to find a suitable meaning for による here ("due to," "by means of," "according to," "depending on," "on the basis of," "with," and "by" don't seem to fit). What am I missing?

Elizabeth · 12 Nov 2004

I believe 日本通運、福山通運 are the names of shipping/transport companies by means of which the delays and cancellations due to the earthquake in Niigata are occuring.

Glenn · 12 Nov 2004

Ah, that would make sense. So then, here's my new crappy translation:

"Due to the effects of the earthquake in Chuuetsu, Niigata prefecture, delivery by Japan Shipping Co. and Fukuyama Shipping Co. (as well as gathering of goods in the Chuuetsu region, Niigata prefecture by Fukuyama Shipping Co.) are delayed, and there are cases where shipping of baggage is cancelled."

How's that?

Elizabeth · 12 Nov 2004

It's a little unclear to me how much delays are coming up due to these companies and how much is the effect of the quake, so I would simply say "Due to the Chuuetsu earthquake, the Nippon and Fukuyama Transport Cos are experiencing delays in 集荷 (cargo pickup ?) and delivery in addition to some areas where there have been cancellations in deliveries and cargo collection." ??

bentenmusume · 12 Nov 2004

新潟県中越地震の影響により、日本通運、福山通運による（新潟県中越地方での）集荷および配達に遅れが生じていたり、集荷、配送を中止しているところがあります。

Elizabeth said:
It's a little unclear to me how much delays are coming up due to these companies and how much is the effect of the quake

I don't think the による after the names of the shipping companies means "due to" here -- it's just marking them as the "agents" of the 集荷 and 配達. The により in first clause, is the "due to" usage of the phrase, and is modifying the final predicate.

It might be tricky in part because of 「新潟県中越地方での」 being kind of 'sandwiched' in there as another modifier, but the whole sentence is easier to parse if you keep in mind that により・によって is adverbial, while による is a noun modifier.

PaulTB · 12 Nov 2004

[EDIT]Nothing to see here - please move along

bentenmusume · 13 Nov 2004

I just thought that I'd offer my own translation of the line based upon my understanding of the structure as I wrote above. It's not too different from Glenn and Elizabeth's translations, but I'll try make it as literal as possible to make it clear what's modifying what in the original grammar.

"Due to the effects of the earthquake in Chuuetsu, Niigata Prefecture, delays have arisen in cargo collection and deliveries in the Chuuetsu region by Nippon Express and Fukuyama Transporting, and there are places which have suspended collection and delivery (altogether)."

I'm not sure that's an improvement, but, for what it's worth...

Glenn · 14 Nov 2004

jt_ said:
It might be tricky in part because of 「新潟県中越地方での」 being kind of 'sandwiched' in there as another modifier, but the whole sentence is easier to parse if you keep in mind that により・によって is adverbial, while による is a noun modifier.

Yeah, I have problems sometimes when I see fifteen different modifiers for one noun, and the modifiers have modifiers. I guess it's a lack of mental power. :? What was really throwing me was that 日本通運、福山通運による modifies 新潟県中越地方, and that modifies 集荷, due to the の in the での. That kind of stuff just confuses me most of the time, and when I break it up I usually find myself with a bunch of words that don't seem to make any sense together.

bentenmusume · 14 Nov 2004

Glenn said:
Yeah, I have problems sometimes when I see fifteen different modifiers for one noun, and the modifiers have modifiers. I guess it's a lack of mental power. :?

Ah, but you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. It happens to all of us, and the only thing you can really do about it is just read and read and read, and gradually more of these things become second-nature. (not to say that's completely happened for me yet, either)

What was really throwing me was that 日本通運、福山通運による modifies 新潟県中越地方, and that modifies 集荷, due to the の in the での. That kind of stuff just confuses me most of the time, and when I break it up I usually find myself with a bunch of words that don't seem to make any sense together.

I wouldn't say that 「日本通運、福山通運による」 modifies 「新潟県中越地方」. 「日本通運」 and 「福山通運」 are the agent(s) of the 「集荷および配達」, not of the Chuuetsu region itself. (How would you translate it if 「日本通運、福山通運による」 were modifying 「新潟県中越地方」?)

So I guess you can either look at it as having two separate modifiers (「日本通運、福山通運による」 and 「新潟県中越地方での」) modifying 「集荷および配達」, or take 「新潟県中越地方での集荷および配達」 as one single noun phrase being modified by 「日本通運、福山通運による」. But if you want one phrase that the 「日本通運、福山通運による」 is hooking up to, it's probably 「集荷および配達」. (Shipping and cargo collection by Nippon Express and Fukuyama Transporting + Shipping and cargo collection in the Niigata Chuuetsu region = Shipping and cargo collection by Nippon Express and Fukuyama Transporting in the Niigata Chuuetsu region.)

That's how I see it, at least.

Glenn · 15 Nov 2004

jt_ said:
I wouldn't say that 「日本通運、福山通運による」 modifies 「新潟県中越地方」. 「日本通運」 and 「福山通運」 are the agent(s) of the 「集荷および配達」, not of the Chuuetsu region itself. (How would you translate it if 「日本通運、福山通運による」 were modifying 「新潟県中越地方」?)

So I guess you can either look at it as having two separate modifiers (「日本通運、福山通運による」 and 「新潟県中越地方での」) modifying 「集荷および配達」, or take 「新潟県中越地方での集荷および配達」 as one single noun phrase being modified by 「日本通運、福山通運による」. But if you want one phrase that the 「日本通運、福山通運による」 is hooking up to, it's probably 「集荷および配達」. (Shipping and cargo collection by Nippon Express and Fukuyama Transporting + Shipping and cargo collection in the Niigata Chuuetsu region = Shipping and cargo collection by Nippon Express and Fukuyama Transporting in the Niigata Chuuetsu region.)

That's how I see it, at least.

Well, that makes sense. I just got caught up in thinking that による had to modify the noun that immediately follows it; I never thought about a delayed resolution (er, music talk, sorry, but it seemed to fit). But now that I think about it, something like 好きな日本で作った音楽 would could be interpreted as "[music made in Japan] that I like," or "[music made in] [Japan] that I like," if that makes sense.

bentenmusume · 15 Nov 2004

Glenn said:
Well, that makes sense. I just got caught up in thinking that による had to modify the noun that immediately follows it; I never thought about a delayed resolution (er, music talk, sorry, but it seemed to fit). But now that I think about it, something like 好きな日本で作った音楽 would could be interpreted as "[music made in Japan] that I like," or "[music made in] [Japan] that I like," if that makes sense.

Or even more simply, take something like 好きな日本のバンド, which I think would almost without exception mean "Japanese bands I like" and not something like "bands of Japan, a country that I like", which is what you'd get if you tried to interpret 好きな as modifying the immediately-following noun 日本.

Of course, as the intervening stuff between the modifier and the noun it modifies gets longer and longer, it can become more and more confusing to parse, but you just kind of have to use common sense and keep the modifier 'cached' in your memory so to speak until you run into the noun/phrase that's being modified.

Scrivener · 21 Nov 2004

jt_ said:
"Due to the effects of the earthquake in Chuuetsu, Niigata Prefecture, delays have arisen in cargo collection and deliveries in the Chuuetsu region by Nippon Express and Fukuyama Transporting, and there are places which have suspended collection and delivery (altogether)."

This is good but I would say (just cutting and pasting your work jt)

"The earthquake in Chuuetsu, Niigata Prefecture, has caused delays and even some cancellation of freight collection and delivery by Nippon Express and Fukuyama Transporting in this region."

The たり is kind of showing there are various things happening.

bentenmusume · 22 Nov 2004

Scrivener said:
"The earthquake in Chuuetsu, Niigata Prefecture, has caused delays and even some cancellation of freight collection and delivery by Nippon Express and Fukuyama Transporting in this region."

The たり is kind of showing there are various things happening.

It's good to see you back, Scrivener. I know that you commented in the other thread that you post here "for your own interest", but I for one always find your posts very interesting and very educational -- to the point that sometimes I feel like I should just sit on the sidelines and let you answer everything.

And yes, I like your translation here much better than my own, as it captures the nuance of the ～たり、～たり as you describe very well, and just 'flows' a bit better than what I suggested.

Little points like these are why I always feel like I'd never be able to quite hack it as a professional translator.

Glenn · 22 Nov 2004

I agree. In fact, Scrivener's translation helps the whole thing make more sense, as my attempt at the English version was cumbersome. And if you feel like you should be on the sideline, jt, then I should probably be in the stands.

Trouble with a phrase

Glenn

一切皆苦

Elizabeth

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

Elizabeth

先輩

bentenmusume

原点回帰

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

bentenmusume

原点回帰

Glenn

一切皆苦

bentenmusume

原点回帰

Glenn

一切皆苦

bentenmusume

原点回帰

Scrivener

先輩

bentenmusume

原点回帰

Glenn

一切皆苦

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