To help mitigate Japanese nationalistic sentiments

Tonysoong · 3 May 2005

After reading some of the posts by some of our Japanese friends, I decide to make a plea upon them: Please shut up, for the sake of Japan

What some of our Japanese are doing in this forum is more than fanning hostility. they take on an indifferent posture, pretending not to know what you indeed know, pretending to be ignorant of what is common sense. I do hope these few won't shake my positive impression about the majority of Japanese people who expect things to change for the better.

The starting point for all debates in this forum is supposed to be whether the Chinese (and the Korean as well) people have recovered from the Japanese atrocities. And the answer is definately NO! And then what? some may ask challengingly, and the answer from me, a Chinese, is WE DON'T KNOW?

Another well-established law is REQUEST FOR JUSTICE IS JUSTIFIED. The most rational way to restore justice is repentance endorsed by forgiveness, though there other way as well, like revenge. The Americans's obliteration of Saddam and his regime is a revenge for 9.11 without waiting for any repentance.

Japan needs to make up with its neighbors no matter whether you are willing to do it or not. If you fail to make up with South Korea and China, you will feel increasingly isolated and deserted, and perhaps even worse than that, though nobody is glad to see that.

So, people without the ethic of repentance like those few had better shut up, as they are harming none other than Japan for the shameful sake of their vain pride.

Wang · 3 May 2005

Tibetans and other endangered minorities in the PRC haven't and aren't recovering from Chinese atrocities that are still happening either.

qwertyu · 6 May 2005

Wang, what has Tibet got to do with protesting WWII revisionism??? Just because you are a pro-independence Taiwanese with animosity towards the PRC shouldn't mean that you can deny victims of their right to demand an accurate accounting of history. Have a conscience for the right of others to demand justice, most of whom are old men and women who have suffered unbelievably, and who have never hurt a single Japnese or Taiwanese! Perhaps you yourself are also a Revisionist - since many Taiwanese and Koreans soldiers who fought in the Japanese Imperial Army were some of the worst war crimes perpetrators - which would explain defending the indefensible.

If you care so much for Tibetans and for Taiwanese independence, please feel free to start threads on those.

This tactic of saying you have no right to protest others if your country has some faults in its history is stupid. Do Americans have the right then to criticise China if they haven't apologised for what they did to Vietnam? Must the British apologise to their former colonies before they are fit to chime in about Tibet?

Wang · 7 May 2005

qwertyu said:
This tactic of saying you have no right to protest others if your country has some faults in its history is stupid. Do Americans have the right then to criticise China if they haven't apologised for what they did to Vietnam? Must the British apologise to their former colonies before they are fit to chime in about Tibet?

Ofcourse they have the right to protest (in democratic countries atleast). I think the PRC should show the right example by correcting their own history textbooks, respecting human rights etc then it has more weight in it's demands for others to do similar things.

lexico · 7 May 2005

Korean Class-A War Criminal Sentenced 20 years, Dies Serving Only 5

WANG said:
Tibetans and other endangered minorities in the PRC haven't and aren't recovering from Chinese atrocities that are still happening either.

WANG, you are off topic, and hurting the healthy atmosphere of the forum. We on the forum are bound by an unspoken code of honor to respect a member by regarding the words and ideas exspressed in his/her writing only, and not to discriminate or lay prejudice by anything other such as the flag of residence.

By violating this code of honor, you have created a bad, negative, stiffling atmosphere. If you have a point to make, please start an independent thread as qwertyu suggested. Nobody will chide you just because the flag of the original poster irritated you somehow. How could we know ? But in this case it's pretty obvious what you've done. It was a vile, and contemptible thing to do. I beg you not to respond any more unless it's on topic. I might even agree to delete this part of the post if you find it revolting provided that you delete yours.

In the meantime, I would honor your idea in a different context. It is true that many countries have committed crimes by having voted the wrong kind of people into power or some other. Let's discuss that, but not here for sure.

qwertyu said:
many Taiwanese and Koreans soldiers who fought in the Japanese Imperial Army were some of the worst war crimes perpetrators - which would explain defending the indefensible.

I appreciate your bringing that up. I for one condemn those Koreans who not only passively collaborated with the enemy Imperialist power, but went further to actively participate and contribute to the aggression efforts of Imperial Japan. This is not the only Korean war criminal, but he is definitely one of the top class criminals that deserved the punishment and more.

CLASS-A WAR CRIMINAL
Pak Mu Tok 窶菟窶禿偲ｺﾂｺ 1882-1950 aka Togo Shigenori 窶愬津ｻﾂｸ窶禿偲ｺﾂｺ

American Historical Review said:
Book Review
Asia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kei Ushimura. Beyond the "Judgment of Civilization": The Intellectual Legacy of the Japanese War Crimes Trials, 1946–1949. (LTCB International Library, number 14.) Translated by Steven J. Ericson. Tokyo: International House of Japan. 2003. Pp. xvii, 336.

This is a subtle book about a subject generally presented in the broadest of strokes, which may explain why the original Japanese edition won a major prize. Kei Ushimura begins by rejecting the stance that "civilization" was the plaintiff in the Tokyo War Crimes Trial and traces the history of that assertion. Not only did the lead prosecutor open the trial with that claim but Maruyama Masao, a prominent postwar Japanese intellectual, also concurred in a famous essay that decried the "dwarfishness" of wartime leaders for their failure to accept responsibility for their crimes. Through a close reading of the trial transcripts and other documents, Ushimura shows that Maruyama systematically ignored statements in which the defendants did acknowledge responsibility. Moreover, contrary to Maruyama's assertions, the Japanese leaders acted much as did their counterparts on trial at Nuremberg. Ushimura's message is that both the prosecutors and Japanese leftists did Japan a disservice by portraying the trial in such a black-and-white way, making it easier for other Japanese then and since to reject the exercise as hypocritical victor's justice. 1
Deftly showing how Japanese and Allies influenced each other and shaped later perceptions of the Tokyo trial, Ushimura matches several pairs of Japanese and Westerners, including novelist Takeyama Michio (most famous for The Harp of Burma) and Dutch justice Bernard Röling, who became friends during the course of the trial. Both produced nuanced analyses of war responsibility. In a remarkable essay written in 1946 but not published until 1951, Takeyama cast "modern civilization" as the defendant rather than the prosecutor. Invoking the tale of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, he argued that Japan's "evil" deeds derived from its use of modern organizational and propaganda technologies, not from its feudal benightedness, as intellectuals such as Maruyama had claimed. By implication, the Allied nations sitting in judgment also contained their own evil twin, modern Mr. Hyde. And, more subtly, Japanese critics also bore some responsibility for wartime policies. Judge Röling issued a dissenting statement, finding five of the twenty-eight defendants not guilty but also recommending the death sentence for three others who had been given life in prison by the majority of the justices. His carefully reasoned judgment, Ushimura suggests, was informed by his conversations with Takeyama, respect for Japanese people, and modest recognition that neither he nor the other judges embodied civilization itself. 2
The Tokyo trial introduced many Japanese civilians to the facts of Japanese wartime actions such as the Nanjing Massacre and established postwar remembrance of the war in Japan on many points. The trial thus operated as a site of remembrance for both Japanese and Westerners, and Ushimura's book, at one level, is a meditation on historical remembrance. Informed by Edward Said's Orientalism (1978) as well as Japanese struggles over how to remember the years of war and occupation, Ushimura criticizes both those who ignore Japanese war crimes and those who treat them as uniquely Japanese. Participants and observers alike frequently used the Tokyo trial as an opportunity to define civilization and barbarity. Often civilization was framed as Western or even global, as against Japanese barbarity, but the concept was more flexible than one might suppose. One of the defendants, former foreign minister Togo Shigenori, wrote a memoir in prison that stressed the views of his predecessor, Mutsu Munemitsu, who had argued that the Sino-Japanese War of 1894–1895 represented the triumph of Western civilization, embodied by Japan, against the "old civilization" of East Asia, represented by China. Togo thus invoked both the context of global imperialisms and Japanese efforts to join the ranks of the Great Powers. He framed the Pacific theater of World War II as a "challenge-and-response" narrative, in which Americans and Japanese reacted to each other in a tragic escalation of hostilities. American insistence before Pearl Harbor that Japan alone withdraw from the Asian continent made it impossible, he averred, for any Japanese government to comply, setting in motion a series of events that could only end in war. 3
This is an interesting book, well translated with a strong authorial voice; at the most fundamental level, Ushimura wishes to remind his readers of the essential humanity of everyone involved. He may be too kind to a few of his subjects, but his reminder that the consequences of dehumanizing others are rarely positive is both timely and important. 4

Laura Hein
Northwestern University

Choe said:
제2차 세계대전 발발할 때와 패전 직후 두 차례 일본 외상을 지낸 도고 시게노리(窶愬津ｻﾂｸ窶禿偲ｺﾂｺㆍ1882~1950)의 선조는 ﾂ壬窶僂ﾋ彖ﾋ慊ｪ 때 잡혀간 도예공의 후예다. 그는 다섯 살 때까지 窶菟窶禿偲ｺﾂｺ(박무덕)이라는 이름을 사용했다고 한다. 가고시마(鹿邃｢Z窶懌?｡)ﾃ｣p에 살았으며, 그곳에는 지금도 窶冑ﾅ誰(단군)을 모시는 ﾂ神ﾅｽﾃ?#44032; 있었다고 한다. 한국에는 남아 있지도 않은 단군교 기도문도 있을 정도로 도예공들의 집단 거주지였다고 한다.
>
맥아더가 최고 사령관인 일본 점령군 총사령부로부터 ﾂ『군사재판에서 금고 20년 형을 선고받은 한국인 A급 ﾂ戰窶敕?전범)이 있다. 만나고 싶다면 신청을 하라ﾂ』는 연락을 받았다. 窶廣공사는 이 사실을 즉시 窶披?ｺﾂ渉ｳ窶敕 대통령에게 보고했다. 그러나 窶披?ｺﾂ渉ｳ窶敕 대통령으로부터는 아무런 회답이 없었다.
>
>아깝게도 도고 시게노리의 400년 만의 정신적 ﾅｸdﾃｻﾂｸ(귀향)은 이뤄지지 못했다. 도고 시게노리는 20년형을 선고받고 복역중 1950년 사망했다.

This Korean who served as Foreign Minister twice during WWII was sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment as one of the fourteen class-A war criminals at the Tokyo Trial. The Korean President Yi, Sung Man 窶披?ｺﾂ渉ｳ窶敕? refused to make a visitation when offered a chance to do so by Supreme Command.

(Sorry for the unfinished translation. Will be back to complete this afternoon.)

A5573A · 7 May 2005

Wang said:
Ofcourse they have the right to protest (in democratic countries atleast). I think the PRC should show the right example by correcting their own history textbooks, respecting human rights etc then it has more weight in it's demands for others to do similar things.

Its a little bit intersting that everytime when people talk about Japanese War Crime in WW2, you always talk about bad human rights record of that red bloody communist authority.

Do you think bad reputation of PRC on human rights can justify Japanese War Crime?

If they did, then they did. We should discuss that from a objective way. You hatred of Communist China can not help you to clean what happened in WW2.

So lets say something relevant to the topic, my friend.

Wang · 7 May 2005

I don't want to clean what happened in ww2. CCP can't clean what it did in the past either.
I think it's a bad attitude of Chinese to blame other countries governments for things while their own government is still acting bad. Like saying you want the other governments to change but your own government doesn't want to act the right way.

lexico · 7 May 2005

Wang said:
I don't want to clean what happened in ww2. CCP can't clean what it did in the past either.
I think it's a bad attitude of Chinese to blame other countries governments for things while their own government is still acting bad. Like saying you want the others to change but not show the right way yourself.

One at a time, my friend, or else we'll all go crazy. It is a human fault or political. But the talking back never helps anything in my opinion. Will anything get done ?
This thread was intended to help some members supporting the Imperialist Japanese cause 60 years after the war. You aren't helping, so the bad rep point.

Wang · 7 May 2005

I disagree. If the PRC for example wants a other country's textbook changed then they should work together to change textbooks in both countries so that they both contain more accurate history.

A5573A · 7 May 2005

qwertyu said:
If you care so much for Tibetans and for Taiwanese independence, please feel free to start threads on those.

Probably Wang should consider about this.

lexico · 7 May 2005

Wang said:
I disagree. If the PRC for example wants a other country's textbook changed then they should work together to change textbooks in both countries so that they both contain more accurate history.

See, Wang, I know what you're trying to say, but that logic gives leeway to any and all parties. That's why nothing gets done. Evertyhing will get postponed forever. The way I see it, this is one way it can work.

First, You call the shots, I respond. To some degree, there is progress.

Next, I call the shots, you respond. Again, some progress is seen.

One at a time.

Lastly, I warn you, you are off topic again, and that bothers me a lot.
Stop making irrelevant comments and start your own thread. Falungong, Tibet, Uighur, Taiwan, N. Korea, whatever. But not here, please.

Wang · 7 May 2005

Well sorry for being off topic. But that is how I think is the best way to go: If the PRC for example wants a other country's textbook changed then they should work together to change textbooks in both countries so that they both contain more accurate history.

And I don't like this: I think it's a bad attitude of Chinese to blame other countries governments for things while their own government is still acting bad. Like saying you want the other governments to change but your own government doesn't want to act the right way.

Therefore I point the finger back at their own government. I don't think that is offtopic.

qwertyu · 7 May 2005

If it is an internal affair of the Japanese,i.e., they want to re-evaluate episodes in their own history, I don't think Koreans or Chinese would bother. However, in this case, it is shared history. By pushing for a glorified version of what the JA did, it also basically says that the victims lied in their own history books.

I'm sure China and Korea would be glad to host a joint historical accuracy project with Japan, but I don't think the Japanese are interested, especially when the West and their former colonies like Taiwan are more obsessed with countering China than in holding Japan accountable for an accurate portrayal of their own crimes against humanity. From the way many of the Japanese posted on this forum, do you think they give a d*mn about what the Chinese and Koreans, whom they have held historical as "inferior" races, think? They would sit up and notice if the West, whom they consider "worthy", say "Hey, this Revisionist stuff is dishonourable." But of course the West wouldn't bother with the rights of the Chinese/Koreans, they care more about the European Jews and their own victimisation by the Nazis, plus, they like Japan for all the whizz-bang pop culture stuff. What do they get out of sympathising with the former victims of the Japanese?

qwertyu · 7 May 2005

And I don't like this: I think it's a bad attitude of Chinese to blame other countries governments for things while their own government is still acting bad. Like saying you want the other governments to change but your own government doesn't want to act the right way.

Well, is it "bad attitude" for the Americans to criticise China for whatever human rights record problems while they invaded Iraq unprovoked and torture their prisoners, many of whom are innocent??? Is it like the Americans want others to change but don't want to act the right way??? How about asking the Japanese, who invaded and annexed Okinawa/Ryukyu in 1874 to apologise to the Okinawans and grant them back their independence before they should even mention Tibet to China???? What about the British setting their own history straight about the Boer Wars, the Opium War, the colonisation of Asia before they point fingers at China?

If you have never condemned the "bad attitude" of others except for China, then you need to ask yourself if you are motivated by a genuine sense of justice or by your own animosity/prejudice towards China. I would rather you be honest, else you risk coming across as hypocritical.

lexico · 7 May 2005

Wang said:
Well sorry for being off topic. But that is how I think is the best way to go: If the PRC for example wants a other country's textbook changed then they should work together to change textbooks in both countries so that they both contain more accurate history.

No you're NOT ! Wang, you are off topic on purpose. Please start your own thread. Why are you sabotaging ? We are not about textbooks in this one. It's about ignorance, and lack of sensibiity. And you should pay heed to what Tonysoong has to say. Just shut up, and start a healthy thread. Your ideas are welcome there.

Wang said:
And I don't like this: I think it's a bad attitude of Chinese to blame other countries governments for things while their own government is still acting bad. Like saying you want the other governments to change but your own government doesn't want to act the right way.

Therefore I point the finger back at their own government. I don't think that is offtopic.

Wang, I urge you to get off this thread immediately.
Tonysoong is NOT the Chinese government, Wang.

qwertyu · 7 May 2005

lexico, if you are S. Korean, my sincere condolences with regard to the top Korean war criminal you posted. I can't imagine anything worse than being betrayed, tortured and killed by one of your own. Hope the Korean people go from strength to strength and become a beacon for peace, that's the only way to ensure the atrocities in the past will not happen again, especially when faced with a recalcitrant Japanese government.

qwertyu · 7 May 2005

What do the Koreans think would help to convince the decent Japanese that it is an honourable thing to face up to history and that the Rightwingers are sabotaging better Asian relations? How can the Asians bypass the nationalists government to do this?

Tonysoong · 8 May 2005

to Wang

I can see that Wang is concerned with political progress in the PRC. Thanks, Wang.

But i am more interested in seeing where everyone, especially our Japanese friends, think the feud between the Japanese and the Chinese and Koreans will lead us, when starting this thread.

Thanks.

qwertyu · 9 May 2005

Tony, I think Wang so much into China's political progress or the Tibetans as he is into spreading anti-China propaganda. He posted stuff from this site:

Ah, this must be an objective, unbiased, factually accurate piece of well-substantiated research about China coming from a site epochtimes.com, that carries "Headlines" and writings such as:

Chinese Communist Regime Spreads Evil to the World, Says China Expert
Chinese Communist Regime Is The Present Threat To Freedom
Assure The Lighthouse Of Taiwan Will Stand
South Korean ﾂ"Nationalismﾂ": A Dangerous One-Way Street-Anger at Japan is understandable; lack thereof at Communist China is not

It features authors such as this:

D.J. McGuire is President and Co-Founder of the China e-Lobby, and the author of Dragon in the Dark: How and Why Communist China Helps Our Enemies in the War on Terror

Tonysoong · 10 May 2005

Wang can feel free to do any kind of propaganda as he likes. He hates the CCP, which suggests that he still cares.

qwertyu · 10 May 2005

Um, no, I don't think ANY propaganda is acceptable, whether they come from the left or right, east or west, as their purpose is to spread lies, half-truths, slander, misinformation to distort reality and undermine complexity of situations.

In fact, I would go as far as to request that posters who work for any political organisation supported by governmental lobbies/funds should be banned, as they are manipulating a bonafide situation.

It's difficult to know for sure if any poster is in fact a professional, but I would take pains to point out if a particular info source is propaganda.

This has to be taken seriously as even the US has openly established propaganda operations, and we are living in the era of "pre-emptive"/aggressive wars justified by non-existent threats sold as solid evidence of "evil" to the world.

The most amazing thing is that it hasn't even bothered most people and life goes on until the next war lights up the TV.

But it bothers ME.

qwertyu · 10 May 2005

Hey, we all take pains to push for historical accuracy, etc., and to ensure that our sources are objective and reliable. I'd be very mad if some poster's role is to gear unsuspecting opinions towards a particular political end!

Tonysoong · 10 May 2005

But anyone is free to pursue his own values and to merchandise those sincerely cherished values as long as he, as you put it, is objective and reliable, though certain values may not be to others' liking.

lexico · 11 May 2005

Let's let him be.

I'd hate to make personal comments in public, but Wang's case is unique in that he acted upon his inner compulsion in a compusive manner. He is not being reasonable, and I'd like to offer an analysis as to the why and the how.

What motivates a person to behave out of the ordinary is often rooted in the perception or the cognitive process of the idividual. A certain behavior that might seems odd to the average person (if such a thing is possible) is quite normal to him; in fact not doing it would be quite maddening for him.

According to Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of need, the lowest (most basic) level of need is physical safety. This is not unique to Wang, but a universal need in every human being. What makes Wang unique is assigning to his idea of secure place in his mind either Taiwan or China exclusively. Upon this basic inequation, are added some more simplistic logic often exhibited in paranoid individuals that say

0) the world is clearly divided into friends and enemies
1) a friend of a friend is a friend
2) an enemy of an enemy is a friend
3) a friend of an enemy is an enemy
4) an enemy of a friend is an enemy

In Wang's mindset exist a strange string of thoughts, that anyone who states something that even resembles being critical of Japan is a direct threat to his mental Taiwan's security, hence comes his strange behavior. If his behavior is compulsive as I suspect, it might be relatively easy to find a cure, but I am no brain doctor. If he is a political activist, the possibility of which I highly doubt, then he is doing a great disservice to all involved. It would be best to just forget about him, and move on with this extraordinarily positive initiative taken by Tonysoong. I love the concert idea. Please remember unit 731 was not particulary genocidal meaning many nationalities perished within the walls of unit 731.

Tonysoong · 11 May 2005

I just don't understand why and how someone surnamed Wang could be more fastidious about China than my Japanese friends.

Wang, I still insist on taking you as my compatriot, please don;t decline me. There is no reason, my brother. There could be two Chinas, or a China and a Taiwan, who cares? But there must be one group of people --- the Chinese.

To help mitigate Japanese nationalistic sentiments

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Underdogs Unite!

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Underdogs Unite!

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