The Politeness Myth

I believe it takes a very long time to be able to judge for your self when it is appropriate to drop the pollitness by word. And even then mistakes will be made. I did worry that I would be considered a rude person at first and have those people think that it was my personality that dictated this rudeness, but the fact of the matter is that our "percieved" personality is different in both languages at first.

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It must be a more natural pairing of plain forms and masculinity for guys, though. As a female, my greatest worry is finding that balance between being perceived as feminine and girlish and, well, overly rude or forthright.

Regardless of what the textbooks say, of course I realize women nowadays don't add a lot of わ、って（よ）、かしら 'proper lady' particles to the end of sentences but even how much to leave off だ or add なの, use of ちゃう・じゃう and other contractions, etc。 are nuances I still need to gradually negotate with myself (and of course my partner, although I'm fairly sure I know he'd prefer a tilt towards the a well-bred woman ! ).
One area in which I've already made up my mind, however, is refusing to concede to "women's speech" if it seems to have been adopted inappropriately, such as purely to make women sound softer or more pliable (ie the rampant replacement of 上げる for やる）。

As you say, though, Dave, I do feel my personality change when I'm there even to visit and the balance of life spent thinking in Japanese and English will surely be a rather unsightly work in progress for a long while to come. ☝

Elizabeth said:

It must be a more natural pairing of plain forms and masculinity for guys, though. As a female, my greatest worry is finding that balance between being perceived as feminine and girlish and, well, overly rude or forthright.

Regardless of what the textbooks say, of course I realize women nowadays don't add a lot of わ、って（よ）、かしら 'proper lady' particles to the end of sentences but even how much to leave off だ or add なの, use of ちゃう・じゃう and other contractions, etc。 are nuances I still need to gradually negotiate with myself (and of course my partner, although I'm fairly sure I know he'd prefer a tilt towards the a well-bred woman !).
One area in which I've already made up my mind, however, is refusing to concede to "women's speech" if it seems to have been adopted inappropriately, such as purely to make women sound softer or more pliable (ie the rampant replacement of 上げる for やる）。

As you say, though, Dave, I do feel my personality change when I'm there even to visit and the balance of life spent thinking in Japanese and English will surely be a rather unsightly work in progress for a long while to come.

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I hear you on the masculine/feminine thing, those first few years of speech are extremely daunting, worrying if you are being rude or not, although I realize that you are probably past most of that. I don't know if your so called "roots" in Japan are 関東 or 関西, but the girls down hear are pretty rough when it comes to speaking. Although ,form a males point of view, speak form the 関東 region can be quite off putting due to its lack of feeling.

Just as a general statement ,I think it is a matter of time and the ability to allow yourself to not feel "strange" when using them for the first time. I know how you feel and I can understand your predicament. In my case ,I feel that by the time I have learnt enough Japanese to speak on par or above a native Japanese, my personality will have changed to conform with this societies ways and beliefs. Everything I do is in my life, work, home and play is governed completely by this culture and I can tell you it a long road with more than its fair share of pot holes and bumps. The stress is incredible, the lack of freedom is insane and to top it off Japanese is not your mother language. Anyway that is my bit of "愚痴" for the day.

FrustratedDave said:

I hear you on the masculine/feminine thing, those first few years of speech are extremly daunting, worring if you are being rude or not, although I realize that you are probably past most of that. I don't know if your so called "roots" in Japan are 関東 or 関西, but the girls down hear are pretty rough when it comes to speaking. Although ,form a males point of veiw ,speak form the 関東 reigion can be qiute off putting due to its lack of feeling.

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ああ、そうですか。基本的に、関西弁は、暖かいと思いますか

私の東京の友達も、特に大阪弁、大阪人をちょっとからかったりしますが、本当の良さを知らないのだろうと思いますね。 もちろん、大阪にも東京は冷たいという印象を受ける人が多いでしょうね。

多分、どちらも間違いかもしれません。 でも、それは単に東京人から聞いた話や意見だけです。 行くのが怖くないよ。

もし日本に長く滞在したいのなら、どうしても大阪も捨てがたいかなあ。。。

Just as a general statement ,I think it is a matter of time and the ability to allow yourself to not feel "strange" when using them for the first time. I know how you feel and I can understand your predicament. In my case ,I feel that by the time I have learnt enough Japanese to speak on par or above a native Japanese, my personality will have changed to conform with this societies ways and beliefs. Everything I do is in my life, work, home and play is governed commpletely by this culture and I can tell you it a long road with more than its fair share of pot holes and bumps. The stress is incredible, the lack of freedom is insane and to top it off Japanese is not your mother langauge. Anyway that is my bit of "愚痴" for the day.

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Yeah, you sound like my b-f today there too. I imagine that's why he laughs so uncontrollably every time he hears talk about me wanting to move to such a 'strange country'....:?