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What is the polite way of saying "koitsu"?

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kawaiisan

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Apparently "koitsu" may be considered rude. I'll be going to japan soon with a bunch of friends that can't speak japanese. How do I say nicely things like

"koitsura wa niku wo tabemasen" (these guys don't eat meat) etc?

Or maybe I can just use it when referring to friends but not strangers? :?
 

Ben Bullock

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Apparently "koitsu" may be considered rude.
It's extremely rude. :eek:
I'll be going to japan soon with a bunch of friends that can't speak japanese. How do I say nicely things like
"koitsura wa niku wo tabemasen" (these guys don't eat meat) etc?
Or maybe I can just use it when referring to friends but not strangers? :?
"koitsura wa niku o tabemasen" means more like "These idiots don't eat meat".
There are lots of ways to say these "guys", for example, "karera" or "kono hito-tachi".
How did you come to learn Japanese like "koitsura" without knowing things like that though? Seems like a joke, almost. :eek:
 

kawaiisan

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Thanks!. Haha, I thought so. probably picked it up from anime, but I guess it's best to just use "karera".

Any other alternatives? What if you're referring to a bunch of girls and guys? unless "kono hitotachi" is the only way to say it..
 
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Thanks!. Haha, I thought so. probably picked it up from anime, but I guess it's best to just use "karera".

Any other alternatives? What if you're referring to a bunch of girls and guys? unless "kono hitotachi" is the only way to say it..
Fortunately, you can't make a broad statement and say that "koitsu" is rude, or inferring that something like "These idiots don't eat meat" is the translation for it, because in the context you are speaking this translation is completely wrong.

Amongst friends it is perfectly fine to say "koitsu", also when speaking of a "kouhai" , the term can be used too. In no way does it mean you think that person is an idiot or are putting them down.

In your situation, if you are also talking to other people who you are on familiar terms with and if those guys are your friends it would be perfectly fine to refer to them like this "koitsura wa niku o tabemasen".

If you want to make a good impression on someone you are meeting for the first time or that person is your boss etc, it would be better to use words like "konohitotachi", kanojyotach, karera".
 

Ben Bullock

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Thanks!. Haha, I thought so. probably picked it up from anime, but I guess it's best to just use "karera".

Any other alternatives? What if you're referring to a bunch of girls and guys? unless "kono hitotachi" is the only way to say it..
You can (should) use karera with a mixed-sex group of people. You can use "kanojo-tachi" if it is single sex female. Please don't call anyone "koitsu".
 

Ben Bullock

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Fortunately you can't make a broad statement and say that "koitsu" is rude, or inferring that something like "These idiots don't eat meat" is the translation for it, b/c in the context you are speaking this translation is completely wrong.
 
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Thanks for the link. Probably should have read it before posting your translation.
"ー また親愛の気持ちからぞんざいにいう場合などに用いる" 

I hope that helps you understand a little more clearly.
 

Ashikaga

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It comes down to how well you speak/understand Japanese.

As Ben has suggested, if you need to ask if referring to someone as "koitsu" is rude, you'd better stay away from using it.

Now, as Dave has written, there ARE situations where it is appropriate. My father refers to me as "koitsu" in the company of his friends. ( Does he think of his son as an idiot? Who knows? Maybe he does... but I doubt it. ) I may refer to my buddies as "koitsura" to a host/ess in a Noodle shop who asks me if we wanted the smoking or the non-smoking table. "Koitsura tabako suukara kitsuen-seki ni shite". Now, if my party included someone older than I am, no matter how close I may be to them, I would not use "koitsura".

Where you are, whom you're talking to, what the occasion is... everything could be a factor in deciding if it is appropriate to use it.
 

Ben Bullock

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Where you are, whom you're talking to, what the occasion is... everything could be a factor in deciding if it is appropriate to use it.
There's a funny scene in the film "Rush Hour" where Chris Tucker walks into a bar and says "What's up my n****r" to the black patrons of the bar. Then Jackie Chan, seeing this, walks into the bar and says to the barman "What's up my n****r".

 

SushiShin

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There's a funny scene in the film "Rush Hour" where Chris Tucker walks into a bar and says "What's up my n****r" to the black patrons of the bar. Then Jackie Chan, seeing this, walks into the bar and says to the barman "What's up my n****r".

Lol, crazy movie.
 
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There's a funny scene in the film "Rush Hour" where Chris Tucker walks into a bar and says "What's up my n****r" to the black patrons of the bar. Then Jackie Chan, seeing this, walks into the bar and says to the barman "What's up my n****r".
Now I could understand this if we were talking about a racially charged word that has a history of implied racism that now its usage is taboo. The TV also censors it.

But we are talking about "koitsu", a word that has a certain amount of affection when used amongst friends or as Ashikaga stated, family. Like with many other Japanese words, the way in which you use it and the situation dictates whether it is being used derogatorily. The same could be said about "omae", used in the wrong way and it can be a bad word.

As Ashikaga stated, it should not be used around an older person, boss, senpai or people you are meeting for the first time. And another good point is that it depends on your language ability too, b/c knowing the right time to use the word very important.

But I suppose anyone can look up the meanings of a word in a dictionary and appear to be knowledgeable, the problem with that is misinformation and that in the real world things can be perceived differently. But, this is the internet and if there weren't any misinformation where would we be?
 

Ben Bullock

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But I suppose anyone can look up the meanings of a word in a dictionary and appear to be knowledgeable, problem with that is misinformation and that in the real world things can be perceived differently. But , this is the internet and if their weren't any misinformation where would we be?
I'm sorry but I don't understand what you said.
 
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I'm sorry but I don't understand what you said.
I can see how you would misunderstand Japanese then.

In simpler terms for you, a native speaker has stated that his father uses the term towards him and he does not think of him as an idiot. He also uses it towards his friends and he is not being in any way derogatory towards them. And it is not a word that only a Japanese person can use b/c as far as I am aware the word is not racist in any way. So your translation that it means that you are referring to your friends as "idiots" is misinformation. Also your notion that a non-native would recieve the same reaction when a non African American says the "N" word is just reaching.

There are instances that you can use the word without any derogatory implications. Understanding when to use them obviously requires a strong hold on the language as you have unwittingly pointed out.

You seem to make a habit of sharing incorrect translations and advise on some aspects of the Japanese language as a matter fact. Maybe you should take a step back and realise that you still have a lot to learn, like the rest of us non-native speakers.
 

Elizabeth

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I can't think of any first or second personal pronouns in Japanese that are "pure" in connotation as rough, polite or whatever, outside any frame of reference. Except maybe kisama or temee which are flat-out rude but nobody really uses anymore anyway. Oh, and avoid onore and anta unless you're looking for trouble. :D
 
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Elizabeth

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Thanks!. Haha, I thought so. probably picked it up from anime, but I guess it's best to just use "karera".
Don't they use "aitsu" more in anime ?? 😌

If you're talking about ano hitotachi or people "over there." Anyway, somehow that sounds slightly more neutral than koitsu, or yatsu (root form of aitsu, koitsu, soitsu)...Use at your own risk. :D
 

Ashikaga

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Oh, and avoid onore and anta unless you're looking for trouble. :D

"Anta" is how older females of my family (my mother, aunts, etc.) call me. I can see an older sister calling her younger siblings that, too. I think it is also acceptable among girlfriends.

Maybe elderly men can get away with using it in a friendly manner but generally, it sounds somewhat feminine. On the "Strongness"-scale, it is at the same level as "Koitsu".

Let's say I stop at a small shop in a strange town to ask for directions. The shop owner may say something like...

"Anta, dokkara (dokokara) kitano?"
"Tokyo kara kitandesuyo"

Again, you have to know when to use it and with whom.
 

Elizabeth

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"Anta" is how older females of my family (my mother, aunts, etc.) call me. I can see an older sister calling her younger siblings that, too. I think it is also acceptable among girlfriends.
Maybe elderly men can get away with using it in a friendly manner but generally, it sounds somewhat feminine. On the "Strongness"-scale, it is at the same level as "Koitsu".
Let's say I stop at a small shop in a strange town to ask for directions. The shop owner may say something like...
"Anta, dokkara (dokokara) kitano?"
"Tokyo kara kitandesuyo"
Again, you have to know when to use it and with whom.
Oh, OK. I only knew it could be applied non- reciprocally to subordinates. :p So it is roughly equivalent to the male version's OMAE ("oh you little..."). More playful or lazy with girl friends - same level of 'politeness.'


And parents or elder siblings can call the children anata, anta, omae etc. without sounding argumentative or scolding ? Not something I really want to try again on a guy.
 
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