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The Politeness Myth

Mikawa Ossan

いかんわ!
17 Sep 2005
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Perhaps it's just Aichi prefecture, but when the people around me speak, I feel like I had been misinformed all that time I was learning Japanese.

I'm talking about the politeness myth. This is the myth that in Japanese you MUST speak politely to people older than you, people you don't know, etc., etc.

When I first came to Japan, I was very concerned about whether I was being polite enough or not. Over the years, I have noticed that generally speaking, it's not such a big deal, though. Where I work, everyone speaks to each other in plain speak, regardless of age. In the volunteer group I used to belong to, the only people using keigo were the youngest of the group (early 20s). In some stores the clerks use a lot of keigo, but at the convenience store I went to tonight, the manager was polite but didn't use a lot of keigo when she explained to me about the mistake they made with my change on a previous visit.

I could give a lot more examples than that, but I think you get the picture. Being polite is important, but it's not everything. Keep in mind that when you are using keigo, you are keeping distance between yourself and the person you're talking to. This is important to do in formal, business situations, but in your day to day life, it is generally not so important.

This is just something that has been on my mind for a long time, and I thought I'd throw it out. I've never put it into words before, so I look forward to everyone helping me flesh out my ideas some more.
 
Yeah I noticed the same thing. After hearing so much about having to use the masu form towards someone new, and sonkeigo to an elderly person, I eventually discovered that people aren't really all that anal about it. Most people I meet for the first time speak in normal form, but if it's in a more formal setting they'll use the masu form. Towards elderly people I use polite forms like 'irasshaimasu', 'meshiagarimasu' etc, if only to practice using them.

These days I seem to be pretty use to the "feeling" of forms, that when I hear foreigner (especially a guy) using stuff like watashi, anata, ~masu etc in a place like a bar I feel like cringing. I don't think I've ever heard any of my male friends use 'watashi' when they're talking to each other. Always 'ore'.
 
In some stores the clerks use a lot of keigo, but at the convenience store I went to tonight, the manager was polite but didn't use a lot of keigo when she explained to me about the mistake they made with my change on a previous visit.
The only public places over the top humble speech is used to excess really are large department stores. It's almost as if the clerks there can not not use it even when it is clearly not being understood. I've never heard a lot of 尊敬語 or 謙譲語 spoken in convenience stores or train stations or actually any public areas, buildings or facilities.

Is your place of employment fairly small MO?
 
"Desu-Masu" teinei-go is definitely the keigo.
But it is important to find a keigo-breaker when you want to socialise someone more, though in business I am aware that my client is client even when I feel like they are like my friends.
 
Is your place of employment fairly small MO?
Depends how your define small. When I visit America, I have to buy omiyage for about 120 people just for work alone. Just one more reason not to visit the states! :p

A little side note:
The most common form of "keigo" that I come across in daily life is the "passive polite." This is saying verbs in the passive tense as a way of being polite.
 
Keigo is still very important in business - not when talking with your bosses and colleauges (though this varies depending on the work place), but when talking with people "outside" - normally clients.
The biggest challenge most freshmen face is talking with keigo on the phone when they answer the call from outside. ;)
 
Having just moved to Sapporo from Osaka, I've actually noticed quite a difference in politeness between the store clerks, including convenience store clerks. They seem to be extremely polite here. When I go to the 7-11 across the street, every bit of language is in sonkeigo, and their behaviour is also more rigid and polite. Although the people in Osaka were very polite (compared to back home in Australia at least!) in comparison they're more relaxed I think.
 
I have to ask what work you are in? Why, b/c in any normal Japanese company in the chain of command there is always the use of 尊敬語 and or 敬語。 People who do not follow this will be quickly put in their place or be relocated (fired), mostly this problem is with young people who have not had any experience in society. Age definetely matters, but when it comes to complete strangers all bets are off, why I say that is b/c it will depend on the individual if they decide to speak politely.
 
When talking about the workplace, I am talking about people in the workplace speaking to other people inside the same workplace. When anyone talks to an "outsider" things change of course.

But my point is less about the workplace (even if that is not the impression I gave) and more about day to day regular out of work life. I used to have a hard time trying to figure out how polite to speak to people at stores, or when I met new people socially, etc.

There's a certain line you never cross, of course, but I have found that being "non-polite" and even "crass" get you much further than being "polite" all the time. Or in other words, one shouldn't worry about it too much.

This may sound like very simplistic for anyone like yourself, Frustrated Dave, who has spent a lot of time in Japan, and of course I think that there is a gradient that must be used with varying degrees of politeness as circumstances warrant.

My point is more that I think that language classes and a lot of intermediate learners of Japanese focus too much on keigo at the expense of being natural. I know that was the case for me.
 
I know where you are at, don't worry about that. I am also talking within the work place, and most of the time people will not point out to you that you are being disrespectful at their expense. It is the smart people who use the polite langauge at work. That being said, if you speak politely to people below you you risk the chance of being walked all over by them and ultrimately this will only caues you more grief. It is different in our world( America, europe , ect) if we speak politely to our staff we can gain their respect, but in Japan the oppisite seems to prevail as the harder we are on them the more they will tend to follow you(that is if you are speaking common sense).

To answer your question, if you go to a convinient store or even a family resturant, you don't need to speak politely at all. The rule that the customer is god really applies here and the waitresses will think nothing of it. However if you are being introduced to someone from a mutual friend you should always try to be as polite as possible. It is very difficult to know when to use and not to use pollites, but with time and experience you will know.

One last thing, not many people will point out that you are being rude by not using polite forms of speach, especially in the work place. But if someone has a title like manager or assistant manager and you don't , I don't care what company you are in , you should always speak to those people with respect b/c it will go a long way. But most of the time b/c you are a "gaijin" you will get away with more than others, but that is still not good.
 
One last thing, not many people will point out that you are being rude by not using polite forms of speach, especially in the work place. But if someone has a title like manager or assistant manager and you don't , I don't care what company you are in , you should always speak to those people with respect b/c it will go a long way. But most of the time b/c you are a "gaijin" you will get away with more than others, but that is still not good.
Never having actually worked in a Japanese company, I've heard of this 'plain speak' rule very infrequently but what he is doing makes complete sense to me. I would also tailor my speech to the norm no matter what I thought it should be. Especially as a gaijin, don't you think it would look very strange for one person to be speaking politely and everyone else be using street level language ?

Although I have gotten in trouble for not referring to a teacher as 'sensei' in the past, so I personally wouldn't feel comfortable in Japan being on a first name basis with my titled superiors...😌
 
Never having actually worked in a Japanese company, I've heard of this 'plain speak' rule very infrequently but what he is doing makes complete sense to me. I would also tailor my speech to the norm no matter what I thought it should be. Especially as a gaijin, don't you think it would look very strange for one person to be speaking politely and everyone else be using street level language ?
Although I have gotten in trouble for not referring to a teacher as 'sensei' in the past, so I personally wouldn't feel comfortable in Japan being on a first name basis with my titled superiors...😌
On the contray, people will appeciate this in work related cases, especially if they are in a position of power. It is my experience that others will follow if you lead by example.
 
I know where you are at, don't worry about that. I am also talking within the work place, and most of the time people will not point out to you that you are being disrespectful at their expense. It is the smart people who use the polite langauge at work.
Well, I speak only of the observations I have made by being around Japanese people interacting amongst themselves every day.

Although perhaps I should elaborate somewhat.

At my current job, there are three kinds of superiors to me: those who have been there longer (sempai), those whose title is above mine but work "in the trenches" so to speak, and those whose titles are above mine but work "above the fray" so to speak. The same kind of superiors apply to most people at my workplace.

For the first two types, we speak in plain speak most of the time. Depending on the situation, we do switch from plain to polite DESU-MASU form, but honorifics are rarely used except when
  1. making a point
  2. making a joke
  3. talking about the coworker's private life
  4. talking about the coworker's family
  5. asking for a favor (depending on the favor)

It depends on whether at that given time we are in the "in-group" or "out-group". Compared to what I learned in school way back when, I find that I am in the "in-group" much more than I would have expected.

That being said, if you speak politely to people below you you risk the chance of being walked all over by them and ultrimately this will only caues you more grief. It is different in our world( America, europe , ect) if we speak politely to our staff we can gain their respect, but in Japan the oppisite seems to prevail as the harder we are on them the more they will tend to follow you(that is if you are speaking common sense).
Yes, I, too, have noticed that if one is polite willy-nilly, you are less likely to be taken seriously. Compared to what one is taught at school, it is remarkable how important plain speak is in human interactions.
To answer your question, if you go to a convinient store or even a family resturant, you don't need to speak politely at all. The rule that the customer is god really applies here and the waitresses will think nothing of it.
Exactly. Of course you should maintain a certain amount of politeness, especially in your actions, but that basically just boils down to common sense.
However if you are being introduced to someone from a mutual friend you should always try to be as polite as possible.
Yes, this is true, but I have noticed that depending on the situation, you can drop the politeness level by quite a bit in a very short time.
It is very difficult to know when to use and not to use pollites, but with time and experience you will know.
Yes, this is true, too. As they say, "practice" makes perfect!
One last thing, not many people will point out that you are being rude by not using polite forms of speach, especially in the work place. But if someone has a title like manager or assistant manager and you don't , I don't care what company you are in , you should always speak to those people with respect b/c it will go a long way.
This is excellent advice.
But most of the time b/c you are a "gaijin" you will get away with more than others, but that is still not good.
I'm sure you agree, but I have found that by "forgetting" you're a foreigner and expecting to be treated just like anyone else is the best thing one can do.
Elizabeth said:
Never having actually worked in a Japanese company, I've heard of this 'plain speak' rule very infrequently but what he is doing makes complete sense to me. I would also tailor my speech to the norm no matter what I thought it should be. Especially as a gaijin, don't you think it would look very strange for one person to be speaking politely and everyone else be using street level language ?
On the contray, people will appeciate this in work related cases, especially if they are in a position of power. It is my experience that others will follow if you lead by example.
Well, you have to make the choice that seems best to you, and only you alone are in a position to decide for yourself what to do. (Is that cryptic or what?:p)

I look at the situation and try to figure out which fits better with the people I am being in engaged with. I have worked at a company where we used a lot of keigo even among ourselves, and the company was very strict about it, but that was mostly to help create a certain ambiance for our customers. But then after hours, it was a whole `nother story!

Frustrated Dave, pleased to make your acquaintance! I haven't had this much fun here in quite a while! 👍
 
Well, I speak only of the observations I have made by being around Japanese people interacting amongst themselves every day.
Although perhaps I should elaborate somewhat.
At my current job, there are three kinds of superiors to me: those who have been there longer (sempai), those whose title is above mine but work "in the trenches" so to speak, and those whose titles are above mine but work "above the fray" so to speak. The same kind of superiors apply to most people at my workplace.
For the first two types, we speak in plain speak most of the time. Depending on the situation, we do switch from plain to polite DESU-MASU form, but honorifics are rarely used except when
  1. making a point
  2. making a joke
  3. talking about the coworker's private life
  4. talking about the coworker's family
  5. asking for a favor (depending on the favor)
It depends on whether at that given time we are in the "in-group" or "out-group". Compared to what I learned in school way back when, I find that I am in the "in-group" much more than I would have expected.
Why I asked of what job you are will greatly effect the kind of politeness you will use. In your situation, the senpai/kouhai relationship usually does not require you to speak politely "All" the time, but every now and again if you put in a desu/masu it won't hurt.Also the time that you have been in the company will also deciede how much polite langauge is needed towards a senpai, usually with time I have seen people almost never use polite words to each other when they have been working together at the same level for quite some time. (by same level I mean hirashain 平社員)

The second lot of people will probably have a similar relationship to the senpai/kouhai situation above where politesness is gradually droped to a certain extent over time, however polites should not be completely droped out as it is disrespectful in some working situations not to use politeness. This one is the hardest to gauge, but as a rule when you are asked to do something or are asking them to do something politness should be used. Eg Wakarimashita or onegaishimasu will usually sufice depending on the jyoushi "上司".

The last one is plain and simple, you should be trying to use politeness on a regular basis and try to judge which situations need it most and use it there. But as a rule politeness should amost always be used. (just don't try to go overboard) usually desu/masu will be fine, keigo in its finest is generally not needed.
Yes, this is true, but I have noticed that depending on the situation, you can drop the politeness level by quite a bit in a very short time. :
In regards to introductions I should have elaborated. You are absolutely right that in most cases politeness is droped very quicky once conversation starts. I have been in situations where it is ok for them to drop the politeness, but not for you to. However judging when to drop and not to drop politeness in these situations will take a long time of watching peoples reactions to your way of speaking. This is why I am called frustrated Dave.LOL In my situation at work ,you almost have to be a mind reader to really get what the person is trying to say or feeling. I tell you getting a subordinate(部下) to tell you what he/she is thinking(本音) is harder that than drawing blood from a stone.

Yes, this is true, too. As they say, "practice" makes perfect!
This is excellent advice. I'm sure you agree, but I have found that by "forgetting" you're a foreigner and expecting to be treated just like anyone else is the best thing one can do.
Well, you have to make the choice that seems best to you, and only you alone are in a position to decide for yourself what to do. (Is that cryptic or what?:p):

On the other hand people forgetting you are a foreigner can present its own problems once you get to a level where in everyday converstations you are able to hold your own(this is when Japanese talk to you on the same level). This is where you can offend someone very easily and not know about it, b/c in our world if we say an expression that really puts someones mind at ease, saying that same thing in Japanese can have the opposite effect and b/c you are proficient in speaking they will assume that you should know better and are trying to bring them down. They will not say anything 9 times out of 10 b/c people over here do NOT like confrontations.

I look at the situation and try to figure out which fits better with the people I am being in engaged with. I have worked at a company where we used a lot of keigo even among ourselves, and the company was very strict about it, but that was mostly to help create a certain ambiance for our customers. But then after hours, it was a whole `nother story!
Frustrated Dave, pleased to make your acquaintance! I haven't had this much fun here in quite a while! 👍
After hours is a whole different ball game. And Mikawa Ossan, I am also pleased to be able to share my experiences with you and anyone else, as it has been a long, long ,long road and I would not wish some of the things I have had to go through on anyone.
 
What a fascinating thread. I've started becoming a bit more cognizant of the levels of speech since one of my new sensei tends to use keigo in one sentence and then ask わかる? in the next.

For the newbie like me, as it's been said, it's tough to figure out where in the world to draw the lines. My rule until now has been to just use polite (masu-level) speech with people that aren't those I identify as friends--people on the street, middle-aged acquaintances, even waitresses and such. Maybe I should ease up on that a bit. I'm going out with one of said middle-aged acquaintances today. Maybe I'll (not too suddenly) drop the -masu speech and improve the 仲. (Don't think she'd mind. (She's the one from the 屋上花火大会, Mikawa Ossan, if you remember her.))

Thanks much, everyone.
 
Just on a side note, young people today really do not have a clue how to speak "keigo" correctly unless they are in a firm that has that kind of training. I find most of my time is devoted to teaching these younger freshman as I think someone said, on how properly address a customer or a representative from another company in person and on the phone. Eg, Just b/c a clerk at a shoe store does not use keigo towards you does it mean that if the roles were reversed you should do the same thing. Watch a good salesman/woman and see how he/she will change his/her attitude to suit the situation and customer. Also as Elizabeth said earlier, some of the big department store clerks won't change their use of keigo even when a gaijin cannot understand it. This is b/c that is how they have been told to speak and if a manager was around and he heard doing otherwise they would be reprimanded, hense the lack of 柔軟性.


Like I said before ,outside of work is a whole different ball game, but you can tell the people who are in business or in a position of power by the way they treat you when they are the customer and you are the one dealing with them.

Also, someone said they cringe when they hear a gaijin using desu/masu at a family resturant and even though it may seem a bit much, I tend to agree in most cases when it is over the top. However when learning the langauge I think a certain amount of politeness goes a long way as gaijin can sound quite harsh in some instances due to accents and expresions that are used , even when that is not your intension. This is difficult to put in words with actually saying it ,but for example, "この書類を明日まで記入してもらわないとこまるよ。" and "この書類を明日まで記入していただかないと困ります! The last one needs to be read with emphasis, but I hope you can see that just because you are using a form of keigo (the above is not really what I call keigo, as there are much more polite ways to say things) that you are being polite. Of corse if you said the first one with emphasis it could also come across quite harsh.
 
Why I asked of what job you are will greatly effect the kind of politeness you will use.
I understand this entirely. Unfortunately I am too private a person to divulge such information openly on the internet. Sorry.

Also, although I appreciate your contribution, I think you misunderstand me. I am not actually looking for advice. I am trying to tell people who are still studying Japanese that the language is not nearly as black and white as most textbooks would have you believe.

Perhaps the fact that I bring up learning Japanese so much makes you reasonably think that I was until recently a student of Japanese. Actually I haven't really studied the language since spring of 2000. It's been osmosis ever since, except when I had to study keigo for the company I mentioned earlier.

The last one is plain and simple, you should be trying to use politeness on a regular basis and try to judge which situations need it most and use it there. But as a rule politeness should amost always be used. (just don't try to go overboard) usually desu/masu will be fine, keigo in its finest is generally not needed.
Yes, I'm sorry I didn't mention the third group of superiors earlier. Of course we use keigo when speaking to them.
In regards to introductions I should have elaborated. You are absolutely right that in most cases politeness is droped very quicky once conversation starts. I have been in situations where it is ok for them to drop the politeness, but not for you to. However judging when to drop and not to drop politeness in these situations will take a long time of watching peoples reactions to your way of speaking. This is why I am called frustrated Dave.LOL
I understand your situation. Probably with the kind of people that I tend to meet, it's different from your case. Of course "reading the air" is important, but often I find that things progress quite well by dropping a lot of the formality and even DESU-MASU to a large extent quite early on. This is not commenting on the workplace, however, but rather personal contact, as I don't meet a lot of new people in the workplace in such a manner.
In my situation at work ,you almost have to be a mind reader to really get what the person is trying to say or feeling. I tell you getting a subordinate(窶「窶昶?ーツコ) to tell you what he/she is thinking(窶怒窶ーツケ) is harder that than drawing blood from a stone.
Yes, and I have been in that subordinate's position, and I know how it is. A lot of people don't want to upset the boss for numerous reasons, so they don't want to cause trouble saying "only their opinion". I don't know the specifics of your situation, but I imagine that the best way to go about getting their true opinion is to talk to them (non-threatingly, of course!) one on one where other people can't hear what they are saying. It would have to be done in such a way that nothing seems out of the usual, though.
On the other hand people forgetting you are a foreigner can present its own problems once you get to a level where in everyday conversations you are able to hold your own(this is when Japanese talk to you on the same level). This is where you can offend someone very easily and not know about it, b/c in our world if we say an expression that really puts someones mind at ease, saying that same thing in Japanese can have the opposite effect and b/c you are proficient in speaking they will assume that you should know better and are trying to bring them down. They will not say anything 9 times out of 10 b/c people over here do NOT like confrontations.
I know how you feel; I have been in this situation countless times. After having seen quite a bit of the country, my solution has been just to be who I am and let the chips fall where they may. I've seen enough variation across the country to start thinking of it less of a "Japanese" thing and more of a "personal" thing.
After hours is a whole different ball game. And Mikawa Ossan, I am also pleased to be able to share my experiences with you and anyone else, as it has been a long, long ,long road and I would not wish some of the things I have had to go through on anyone.
Amen, brother!
Just on a side note, young people today really do not have a clue how to speak "keigo" correctly unless they are in a firm that has that kind of training.
Oh, yes, isn't this true, though? I had to teach some co-workers keigo at the hotel. I always felt strange about it, especially because I never answered the phone as I developed a tendency to studder when nervous at that job. That was not fun, let me tell you!

In my situation at work ,you almost have to be a mind reader to really get what the person is trying to say or feeling. I tell you getting a subordinate(部下) to tell you what he/she is thinking(本音) is harder that than drawing blood from a stone.
Yes, and if I worked at such a store, I would probably behave the same.


The point is, however, not the subtlies of when to use keigo versus when not to, as that obviously is a HUGE undertaking, but rather, that non-keigo plain speak is very important and used much more than a lot of people seem to think judging from these boards.

In my experience, there are many times when of course it is inexcusable not to use keigo, but generally speaking it is not so necessary or important. In the volunteer circle, volleyball circle, taiko drumming club, tea ceremony class, etc. that I have been a member of in the past it was all the same: don't sweat about keigo too much.

As Elizabeth said earlier, I do not want to be the only person in the group I am in to be using keigo to everyone else if they would not do so if the situation were reversed. I stand out enough as it is simply by being a foreigner. When it is necessary to use keigo I use it, and I even like keigo in the right circumstances to be honest, but I try to only use it to the extent that Japanese men in roughly my own situation would do so.
 
Don't worry Mikawa, I have read your previous posts and I know you are veteran.

And I see your point, we are told we have to be as polite as possible before we enter Japan and in reality it is not really needed as much as it is emphasized.

When I first got here I was at a loss as to why I had to use desu/masu and all the people around did not. I think this is a great thread for those of you who are wondering about whether you should use keigo or not. Actually studing keigo is a whole different story and I recommend it to anyone.

Tahnks for the great thread Mikawa Ossan👍
 
What a fascinating thread. I've started becoming a bit more cognizant of the levels of speech since one of my new sensei tends to use keigo in one sentence and then ask わかる? in the next.

For the newbie like me, as it's been said, it's tough to figure out where in the world to draw the lines. My rule until now has been to just use polite (masu-level) speech with people that aren't those I identify as friends--people on the street, middle-aged acquaintances, even waitresses and such. Maybe I should ease up on that a bit. I'm going out with one of said middle-aged acquaintances today. Maybe I'll (not too suddenly) drop the -masu speech and improve the 仲. (Don't think she'd mind. (She's the one from the 屋上花火大会, Mikawa Ossan, if you remember her.))

Thanks much, everyone.
Acquaintances are more of a case-by-case story dependent on the natural progression of the relationship, their speech, how you address each other, etc. I still use desu-masu with homestay families I've stayed with, for example, even though in some cases we are in touch on an almost daily basis because that's what they feel comfortable using in front of their students. Same with my boyfriend for a long time and my tutor until recently.

But I really think without exception you should continue using 丁寧語 level speech with waitresses, convenient store workers and anyone being paid for their service. You may have noticed it is not terribly unusual for Japanese customers to treat clerk-level positions with extreme rudeness and disrespect (from being totally unresponsive to excessively demanding to lack of 'please,' 'thank you' etc) -- worse than you would talk to your dog. And even if the employees would also love to drop some of their formalities to these people (arigatou gozaimsasu, irasshaimase etc), it isn't in their position to do so.

Therefore, it shouldn't be something the customer takes advantage of by exaggerating the inequality of the relationship. It is true that they need you more than you need them but that still doesn't make it right to treat a person doing a service and such as unappreciately as you would talk with family, friends and equals. :eek:
 
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Same with my boyfriend for a long time and my tutor until recently.
This shows that people do vary, don't they? When I was learning Japanese, my girlfriend at the time complained whenever I used DESU-MASU to her even though it was all I knew at the time! :( Every girlfriend since has been plainspeak.

But I really think without exception you should continue using 窶卩。窶扣ナ津ェ level speech with waitresses, convenient store workers and anyone being paid for their service. You may have noticed it is not terribly unusual for Japanese customers to treat clerk-level positions with extreme rudeness and disrespect (from being totally unresponsive to excessively demanding to lack of 'please,' 'thank you' etc) -- worse than you would talk to your dog.
There are two kinds of politeness:
1) politeness by word 2) politeness by action.

It is possible to exhibit #1 but not #2 as equally well as it is possible to exhibit #2 without #1. The example you show is of Japanese customers exhibiting neither. Some people just have no manners.

I would argue that with waitresses, convenient store workers, etc., it is more important to exhibit #2 than #1. Of course #1 doesn't hurt, but it's not necessary.
 
This shows that people do vary, don't they? When I was learning Japanese, my girlfriend at the time complained whenever I used DESU-MASU to her even though it was all I knew at the time! :( Every girlfriend since has been plainspeak.
There are two kinds of politeness:
1) politeness by word 2) politeness by action.
It is possible to exhibit #1 but not #2 as equally well as it is possible to exhibit #2 without #1.
The example you show is of Japanese customers exhibiting neither. Some people just have no manners.
I would argue that with waitresses, convenient store workers, etc., it is more important to exhibit #2 than #1. Of course #1 doesn't hurt, but it's not necessary.
That was exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. You explained it much better, as I have lost all ability to converse in English!LOL🙂

I believe it takes a very long time to be able to judge for your self when it is appropriate to drop the pollitness by word. And even then mistakes will be made. I did worry that I would be considered a rude person at first and have those people think that it was my personality that dictated this rudeness, but the fact of the matter is that our "percieved" personality is different in both languages at first. This difference will gradually merge together as anyone who is studying the langauge masters the small nuances involved in verbal communication. However, I feel personaly that my personality has fundamentaly changed since being in Japan, obviuosly this has a lot to do with the culture, but also with the fact that expressing ones self in Japanese and English is different. Anyway that is just my thoughts on the situation.
 
This shows that people do vary, don't they? When I was learning Japanese, my girlfriend at the time complained whenever I used DESU-MASU to her even though it was all I knew at the time! :( Every girlfriend since has been plainspeak.
My situation was similar in that even though I complained periodically 3 or 4 years ago I honestly didn't feel entirely comfortable at that time outside of DESU-MASU myself. And then there's the fact that he's 10 years older and on the conservative side which means it became an ingrained habit. He also may pretend it was unconscious on his part which I don't accept at all...

So I've never used plainspeak as much as a should and am still nervous about sounding totally ridiculous. But he's willing to match my lead now so am at least making more of an effort. Even if we never get married, it could bode well for the relationship and my literacy level...😌 😄
 
Elizabeth, I know how you feel, with somepeople it just becomes a habbit. A while ago I was made speak without desu/masu in certain situations and it felt very, very wrong. I was so used to speaking towards those people this way that I really worried what they were thinkly of me every time I spoke with them.
 
This is a very interesting discussion.

I think there are also levels in "plain speak" as well. If one just simply drops desu and masu for da and plain form only, that is less "rude" than say, using "ore", or "omae" to refer to oneself or the other person.

I think it's all about setting the tone and relationship with the other person, when deciding on which way you want to talk with. If you think you are talkative and wanna talk no holds barred, by all means start talking in the plain form (but obviously not to someone who is much older than you).

I've heard about the following strategy when you've decided to use plain form: First, when meeting anybody (except ppl who are much younger than you), always start with the polite form, ie. desu/masu. Then, after talking for a while, if you think you want to start talking in the plain form, one can actually describe something that does not directly relate to others, in plain form. That is, one can say to oneself, "ah, tenki waruku natta ne", or "kore oishisou!" and wait for the response from others. If others start responding in plain form, then it should be a good sign that it is possible to progress talking in plain form.
 
This is a very interesting discussion.
I think there are also levels in "plain speak" as well. If one just simply drops desu and masu for da and plain form only, that is less "rude" than say, using "ore", or "omae" to refer to oneself or the other person.
For sure, when used correctly they cannot be remotely considered "rude." Both of these examples are quite normal under the right circumstances.
It is equally impolite, if not more so, to use "watakushi" or "desu-masu" style with close friends.

I seriously doubt even talking with someone much older that they would bat an eye if you let out an "oishisou!" instead of "oishisoudesune"


Maybe it's because the environment for learning on a forum is naturally a bit restrictive and unrealistic. I have an idea to not sound so much like a textbook....we need to bring back that casual chat thread ! Anyone game ? 👍 :p

There are two kinds of politeness:
1) politeness by word 2) politeness by action.

It is possible to exhibit #1 but not #2 as equally well as it is possible to exhibit #2 without #1. The example you show is of Japanese customers exhibiting neither. Some people just have no manners.

I would argue that with waitresses, convenient store workers, etc., it is more important to exhibit #2 than #1. Of course #1 doesn't hurt, but it's not necessary.
It isn't necessary to avoid being seen as impolite, unless perhaps you're in a convenient store (or non-family resturant) like Bucko described in which upper level sonkeigo is the norm. Than I would definately reciprocate at least in the teineigo style.

But often words are often the only means of communication available in a very short transaction and being on the same level as the people forced to speak with customers in a certain way to me shows them a certain appreciation or respect or refinement, however you want to think of it, that goes beyond the expected norm.

And if they don't care, that's life....nothing has been lost or gained by doing it in the process...
 
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