the meaning まで

UsoToChinmoku · 17 Apr 2015

なんかあった？
なんもねえよ、むしろアレだな
逆に俺の人生なんもなさすぎるまである

1)I assume まで has the same function as ほど here . When まで is used to express extent/degree is the nuance completely identical to ほど?
I checked, just in case, and goo uses ほど to define this usage of まで:

２動作・事柄の及ぶ程度を表す。…ほど。…くらいに。「そんなに―ぼくのことを思ってくれるのか」
「作法、世に珍しき―、もてかしづき聞こえ給へり」〈源・桐壺〉

2) I know what the sentence means, but it seems hard to make a literal translation. I assume the last "ある" is a direct response to "なんかあった？" So:

"Did something happen?
It's nothing, if anything it's...
On the contrary, There's "something" of too much of nothing happening in my life"?

The "official" translation provided is quite liberal: "If anything, my life's been as boring as watching paint dry". So I wondered how a more literal translation would work.

Toritoribe · 18 Apr 2015

UsoToChinmoku said:
なんかあった？
なんもねえよ、むしろアレだな
逆に俺の人生なんもなさすぎるまである

1)I assume まで has the same function as ほど here . When まで is used to express extent/degree is the nuance completely identical to ほど?
I checked, just in case, and goo uses ほど to define this usage of まで:

２動作・事柄の及ぶ程度を表す。…ほど。…くらいに。「そんなに―ぼくのことを思ってくれるのか」
「作法、世に珍しき―、もてかしづき聞こえ給へり」〈源・桐壺〉

2) I know what the sentence means, but it seems hard to make a literal translation. I assume the last "ある" is a direct response to "なんかあった？" So:

"Did something happen?
It's nothing, if anything it's...
On the contrary, There's "something" of too much of nothing happening in my life"?

The "official" translation provided is quite liberal: "If anything, my life's been as boring as watching paint dry". So I wondered how a more literal translation would work.

That's the definition #4 "even".

４極端な例をあげて、他の場合を言外に推測させる意を表す。…さえ。「子供に―ばかにされる」「実の親に―見放される」

まで【迄】［副助終助］の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

UsoToChinmoku · 18 Apr 2015

Hmm. According to that definition it should be somewhat interchangeable with さえ and If i remember correctly you can't just attach it directly to a non-連用形/連体形 verb.

ｘ逆に俺の人生なんもなさすぎるさえある
○ 逆に俺の人生なんもなさすぎるのさえある

Right?
Does this version of まで work differently from さえ? According to the example sentence I posted I can attach まで with this usage directly to an inflectable word without needing to deflect it with の? Or was の simply omitted in this case?

Toritoribe · 18 Apr 2015

The original sentence is 逆に俺の人生「なんもなさすぎる」まである. That's invalid (so-called 非文) in proper Japanese grammar, anyway.

UsoToChinmoku · 18 Apr 2015

So の was omitted? What would then be grammatically proper Japanese in this case?

逆に俺の人生はなにもなさすぎるのまである.
逆に俺の人生はなにもなさすぎまである
Or even
逆に俺の人生は「なにもなさすぎる」というのまである

Toritoribe · 18 Apr 2015

逆に俺の人生なんもなさすぎる

The speaker used that expression jokingly.

UsoToChinmoku · 18 Apr 2015

But that still doesn't answer the question if the 4-th usage of まで you linked me to needs to be attached to a deflected word, in the same was as さえ does

EDIT: He may have used that expression jokingly, but, in fact, there's a lot of "nothing happening" in his life at the moment. OK, now I'm more confused than I was before asking. How does the information that he was joking help me?

Toritoribe · 18 Apr 2015

なんもなさすぎる is treated as a quotation, as in my previous post.

EDIT:
I'm talking about the expression "まである", not the content of his words "なんもなさすぎる".

UsoToChinmoku · 18 Apr 2015

So you were saying this wasn't proper Japanese simply because there were no quotation marks? Can you just attach まで directly to a quote?

EDIT: I know that this isn't a grammar thread, but I'd be thankful If you could explain if this (極端な例をあげて、他の場合を言外に推測させる意を表す) function of まで is used the same way as さえ.
1)食べるのさえ嫌になった＝ 2)食べるのまで嫌になった？ The deflecting particle の can't be removed in #1 and if you remove it in #2 the meaning will change, right?

Toritoribe · 18 Apr 2015

The quotation marks are just an aid for understanding of the meaning. That's invalid or very colloquial expression at least.

UsoToChinmoku said:
OK, now I'm more confused than I was before asking.

That's understandable since that sentence is invalid or at least very colloquial. (Actually, I thought there must be a typo there because I couldn't understand the meaning at all.)

UsoToChinmoku said:
EDIT: I know that this isn't a grammar thread, but I'd be thankful If you could explain if this (極端な例をあげて、他の場合を言外に推測させる意を表す) function of まで is used the same way as さえ.
1) 食べるのさえ嫌になった＝ 2)食べるのまで嫌になった？ The deflecting particle の can't be removed in #1 and if you remove it in #2 the meaning will change, right?

「そんな極端な例を出すな」まで/さえ言われた

UsoToChinmoku · 18 Apr 2015

Looks like my question went out of the thread's scope as usual
Anyway, I created this webm with a bit more context just in case: try this
But It wasn't a mistype since I copy/pasted the text from the Japanese captions provided.

Thanks. It looks like both まで and さえ have the same meaning and nuance in the example you provided.But how does it work if it's not a quote?
1)食べるのまで嫌になった (Even the act of eating became unpleasant)
2)食べるまで嫌になった (Something became so unpleasant I started eating)
?

#1 = さえ, #2 = ほど? Are they both grammatically valid? (Not necessarily semantically valid)

Toritoribe · 18 Apr 2015

I know your quotation is not wrong since I googled the sentence and watched やはり俺の青春ラブコメはまちがっている。 before answering your question.

You should use 好きになった instead of 嫌になった, since it's semantically odd (at least quite rare).
食べるまでに好きになった can barely mean 食べるほど/くらい好きになった.

Back to the original sentence, 逆に俺の人生なんもなさすぎるくらい/ほどある doesn't make sense in the first place, don't you think so?

UsoToChinmoku · 18 Apr 2015

Regarding the original sentence: well, neither さえ nor ほど don't make much sense to me here, but that's why I asked you about inflected/deflected words. If we assume this sentence, although very colloquial, is 1)grammatically correct and 2) not a quotation - it can't be the さえ usage. Since that usage requires it to be attached to a 体言/助詞 and なさすぎる is a 用言. But ほど makes sense, at least grammatically, here, no?

Meaning wise, it would make sense if it were reversed, as in: 逆に、俺の人生、（なにか）ある（といえる）ほどなんもなさすぎる? It's so uneventful that you could say it's an event in itself. But the original still doesn't make sense...

EDIT: Could it be somewhat sarcastic? Oh there's something happening alright... (sarcasm) to the extent of absolutely nothing happening?

Toritoribe said:
You should use 好きになった instead of 嫌になった, since it's semantically odd (at least quite rare).
食べるまでに好きになった can barely mean 食べるほど/くらい好きになった.

I meant, something else became so unpleasant that someone started eating. For example someone binge eating ice-cream to counteract the unpleasant stress at work etc.
（私は）職場のストレスがアイスクリームを際限なく食べてしまうまで嫌になった。

P.S.

So the translation and grammar of this sentence is correct?

UsoToChinmoku said:
1)食べるのまで嫌になった (Even the act of eating became unpleasant)

Toritoribe · 18 Apr 2015

I don't agree with your interpretation of the original sentence. まで is not "to the extent". 逆に, I want to know why my one can't be acceptable to you.

UsoToChinmoku said:
I meant, something else became so unpleasant that someone started eating. For example someone binge eating ice-cream to counteract the unpleasant stress at work etc.
（私は）職場のストレスがアイスクリームを際限なく食べてしまうまで嫌になった。

You can't use まで there. It must be ほど. They are not always interchangeable since they are not the same word, of course.

ストレスでアイスクリームを際限なく食べてしまうほど/くらい、職場が嫌になった。

UsoToChinmoku said:
So the translation and grammar of this sentence is correct?

Yes.

UsoToChinmoku · 18 Apr 2015

I don't think that my interpretation is good either, actually. But I don't see how your interpretation works grammatically. Shouldn't there be 体言化の/こと in order for it to be the さえ usage?

EDIT: OK, after re-reading everything a few times, I think that your interpretation makes sense. But the 「なんもなさすぎる」 being a quote is highly unorthodox and baffling
By the way, Crunchyroll released an official translation not too long ago:

Toritoribe · 19 Apr 2015

UsoToChinmoku said:
the 「なんもなさすぎる」 being a quote is highly unorthodox and baffling

I believe most natives would have the same impression as you.

The given translation is exactly for 逆に俺の人生なんもなさすぎる, as in my previous post.

UsoToChinmoku · 19 Apr 2015

OK, I appreciate your help as usual. Two more questions and I'm done. Bear with me!

1) How would you re-word the original sentence to be less ambiguous and grammatically proper, but retain the same nuance? Do the following sentences make more sense:
a) 「逆に、なんもなさすぎることさえ/まである」
b) 「逆に、なんもなさすぎるとさえ/まで言える」

2) I noticed that you added に in your example sentence.Could you explain how are these sentences different?
食べるまでに好きになった
食べるまで好きになった

Toritoribe · 19 Apr 2015

1)
逆に俺の人生なんもなさすぎるとさえ/とだって言える

2)
までに limits the meaning to くらい（に）/ほど（に）. (It can refer to temporal period depending on the context, though.)
The two objects, what is eaten and what is liked, can't be the same in the second sentence.

UsoToChinmoku · 19 Apr 2015

Toritoribe said:
2)
までに limits the meaning to くらい（に）/ほど（に）. (It can refer to temporal period depending on the context, though.)
The two objects, what is eaten and what is liked, can't be the same in the second sentence.

But this までに still isn't 100% interchangeable with ほど/くらい I assume? The sentence I posted before would still be invalid with までに?

（私は）職場のストレスがアイスクリームを際限なく食べてしまうまで嫌になった。

Toritoribe said:
You can't use まで there. It must be ほど. They are not always interchangeable since they are not the same word, of course.

Toritoribe · 19 Apr 2015

There is no problem with ストレスでアイスクリームを際限なく食べてしまうまでに、職場が嫌になった。.

UsoToChinmoku · 19 Apr 2015

Hmm, I see... That's interesting. Thank you for all of your help.

the meaning まで

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

松葉解禁

後輩

Similar threads