Suicide and bullying

I can say that I wasn't teased in school. I was teased by my two older brothers. I survived. I was picked on worse than the girl my friend and I teased. I learned how to deal with it. The teasing we did wasn't physically threatening. This girl never had to fear for her life or that she would have ever been harmed physically. Emotionally, yep, we were mean to her. I admit that freely, not proudly, but at least I can admit to it. I still say that I think it's normal. I won't say it's "right", but I think it is a part of growing up. My brothers teasing me made me able to fight back, physically, and verbally, and to learn when to just turn around and walk away. Sorry to be kind of rambling here...but really the teasing we did was juvenile behavior and nowadays wouldn't seem like anything. It was leaving silly notes in her locker, or hiding a pencil or notebook...ignoring her at lunch, nothing extreme, oh maybe a "kick me" note taped on her back. So call me a criminal!
 
Don't you think that being teased by family members is different from being teased by other people?

With family members, you're living together, so there will always be good times as well as the bad, and kids are held accountable to a certain degree due to the parent factor.
 
I can say that I wasn't teased in school. I was teased by my two older brothers. I survived. I was picked on worse than the girl my friend and I teased. I learned how to deal with it. The teasing we did wasn't physically threatening. This girl never had to fear for her life or that she would have ever been harmed physically. Emotionally, yep, we were mean to her. I admit that freely, not proudly, but at least I can admit to it. I still say that I think it's normal. I won't say it's "right", but I think it is a part of growing up. My brothers teasing me made me able to fight back, physically, and verbally, and to learn when to just turn around and walk away. Sorry to be kind of rambling here...but really the teasing we did was juvenile behavior and nowadays wouldn't seem like anything. It was leaving silly notes in her locker, or hiding a pencil or notebook...ignoring her at lunch, nothing extreme, oh maybe a "kick me" note taped on her back. So call me a criminal!

You know you don't have to justify what you did to us here, I admit that I did not expect this response. It sounds to me at least that you feel a bit guilty in looking back at the actions you took towards this girl.

You thought it wasnt a big deal, but in your previous post you wrote that the woman actually asked you why did you hate her, she took your supposedly harmless teasing as something much more serious and thats the point.

Justifying it or making comparisons to nowadays really doesnt matter.
The only thing that matters is the person receiving the harrasment, not your intent.

I grew up in a large family, I had 8 older brothers and sisters, all very huge and equally strong, believe me when I say I understand your point about teasing in the family. As you know not everyone has the same experiences though. I admire your honesty here in sharing something that you did to hurt another person here. I hope you can let it go.
 
Verbal Obsessive Stalking

Obeika...your comment...

"Actually I am fairly certain there are laws against verbal insults, things like hate speech, harrasment and sexual harrassment. All of which can be verbal. Oh there are also slander laws as well."

Verbal insults is a broad category of very real speech, while hate speech, and sexual harrassment, slander, and then the written libel are very specific categories.

I guess this discussion has forced me to rethink "What crime is bullying?", and "How many flavors of bullying are there?" I think that the continuous, obsessive, belittling of another person, that we call "bullying", is now being understood for the damage that it can do, though it is not "criminal" at this time.

There are now anti-stalking laws in place, where it never used to be a crime. The "bullying" behaviour may fall under a "verbal tormenting, psychological stalking" category of abuse, which is detrimental to the victim, which as far as I know, has not been defined, and has not been deemed "criminal".

And with this latest incident, I would hope that laws are enacted, similar to anti-stalking laws, against "bullying".

I am surprised myself at the importance of this wonderful thread.
 
And with this latest incident, I would hope that laws are enacted, similar to anti-stalking laws, against "bullying".

Interesting idea here. Stalking is mostly adult on adult, however where this becomes a problem is that the majority of cases of bullying occur among juveniles.

While not wanting another incident of VT I dont think laws against bullying would work. There are just too many angles and loopholes, not to mention the area of fault or recognition.

In the the US the atmosphere of sueing people for the littlest b.s. among a list of other reasons as well would make a law, imo, virtually impossible to enforce.

However it is an interesting idea.
 
Mikawa Ossan...I think being teased by family was far worse as you had to live with your teasers for years and years. My parents turned a deaf ear to teasing and said to ignore it and get on with life.

I am not trying to justify what I did as a teenager. I would probably do it again if I had to relive my past. (without the knowledge and life experience I have now) I am just curious about why we ever picked on this particular girl. Yeah, she thought we hated her, but we didn't. That's what so strange. I can look back and say that we didn't hate her...so why did we pick on her? I really wonder that? As for feeling guilty, no, I wouldn't say that. I said sorry at our chance encounter and life goes on. As the old saying goes...you live, you learn.
 
Mikawa Ossan...I think being teased by family was far worse as you had to live with your teasers for years and years. My parents turned a deaf ear to teasing and said to ignore it and get on with life.
I am not trying to justify what I did as a teenager. I would probably do it again if I had to relive my past. (without the knowledge and life experience I have now) I am just curious about why we ever picked on this particular girl. Yeah, she thought we hated her, but we didn't. That's what so strange. I can look back and say that we didn't hate her...so why did we pick on her? I really wonder that? As for feeling guilty, no, I wouldn't say that. I said sorry at our chance encounter and life goes on. As the old saying goes...you live, you learn.
Thanks for your response!

Did you ever feel that your brothers hated you?
 
Bullying Children, Bullying Parents...

In the craziness of America, and it is I believe, as dysfunctional legally as one could imagine, I am ALSO resonating on GoldieGirls comment...

"I think being teased by family was far worse as you had to live with your teasers for years and years. My parents turned a deaf ear to teasing and said to ignore it and get on with life. "

Let me add to this bullying concept, of children bullying their parents (which is allowed in America, no hitting is allowed), and adults bullying their children (which I have witnessed firsthand). Teenagers can actually "emancipate" themselves under certain circumstances at age ??? 15 or so, under court order, if some forms of abuse have occurred. Children have actually sued their parents, and put them in jail for alleged bizarre and abusive behaviour, many times for pathetically ridiculous reasons as decided by the US courts.

Note: The US court system is massively dysfunctional, inconsistent, prone to corruption and criminality, with one Family Court Judge now on trial in Brooklyn for selling decisions on custody matters. He is also under investigation for selling judgeships, wherein persons apparently agreed to pay money like $100,000 upfront for the Judge position, plus $50,000 per year ...to keep the job, or so the story goes. Can you imagine a Family Court Judge who may decide up to a billion dollars in property settlement decisions in a single year, and also custody decisions, all on $150 per day? With an asking price of $10,000 per favorable decision, this Judge engaged in financial bullying, i.e., extortion, in favor of the paying party..."Pay Up or Else, you lose your house and your children!"

As for Obeika's valid, valid comment against defining "bullying" under some kind of legalistic crime status..."There are just too many angles and loopholes, not to mention the area of fault or recognition..."

True, but I ask...don't you think we should start somewhere, anywhere, to help an abusive relationship get healthier? Are you say NO law should be enacted?
 
Note: The US court system is massively dysfunctional, inconsistent, prone to corruption and criminality, with one Family Court Judge now on trial in Brooklyn for selling decisions on custody matters. He is also under investigation for selling judgeships, wherein persons apparently agreed to pay money like $100,000 upfront for the Judge position, plus $50,000 per year ...to keep the job, or so the story goes. Can you imagine a Family Court Judge who may decide up to a billion dollars in property settlement decisions in a single year, and also custody decisions, all on $150 per day? With an asking price of $10,000 per favorable decision, this Judge engaged in financial bullying, i.e., extortion, in favor of the paying party..."Pay Up or Else, you lose your house and your children!"
Is this the judge you mean?
http://www.judicialaccountability.org/articles/bribejudgefirststories.htm
 
Yes, this is the guy. The Bully survives!

If you note the quote from the article...

"Yesterday the judge in Justice Garson's case, Steven W. Fisher, dismissed six felony counts of receiving rewards for official misconduct. Prosecutors had based those charges on accusations that Justice Garson had violated rules of judicial conduct, and Justice Fisher held that breaking those rules would not be a crime but rather a matter for administrative discipline."

The bully gets away with his crimes, because the system is so systemically corrupt, you can buy a judgement in your favor, $10,000 used to be the price.

Imagine bringing a street bully up on charges in front of this judge, someone who has tormented and threatened yourself and your children, and the idiot buys his way out of trouble!

It happens all the time, and the problem is perpetuated.

A group of women are organizing a class action lawsuit against this animal.
 
Bullying in the United States schools has always been bad. However, what has been going on in the past 20 or 30 years in American schools with cliquishness and ostracism is actually creating a massive backlash that has resulted in shootings, hate crimes, and other horrific side-effects.

I, and my younger sister and brother, were all ostracized in our grade school, to the point where I attempted suicide in fourth grade. I was ridiculed because I was intelligent and got straight A's, and I was physically brutalized often. The teachers literally turned a blind eye, to the point where, in middle school, my parents enrolled me in karate classes and told me not to worry about getting suspended for fighting in school anymore, so long as it would get the kids to leave me alone. Between be decking a few kids in eighth grade and a few lawsuit threats to the school and against other parents, I managed to enter high school relatively left alone. My sister and brother were lucky enough to have parents who had already gotten used to the sort of abuse I had taken, and didn't sit idly by when they were bullied.

The case with Cho at Virginia Tech is a good example of what ostracism can do. An interview with one of his high school teachers reveals that he was rejected by his entire peer group because he was a foreigner. This ostracism had a profound psychological impact on him. Unfortunately, he never healed his wounds and months before his graduation, snapped and slaughtered many of his peers at Virginia Tech.

It is very reminiscent of Columbine, where the "Trenchcoat Mafia", a group of "dorks" that were ostracized by their peers, urned into a fanatical neo-nazi club and butchered their classmates, including innocents along with the tormenters.

What upsets me is that no one considers the damage bullying does to these kids. The media and politicians are constantly blaming "gun laws" and "video games". The truth is, the popular kids, the preppies, and the jocks are making many kids miserable for the most formative years of their lives. Every kid killed at Columbine was portrayed as a shining star, a beautiful life that had only performed deeds of glittering beauty and had a future as grand and bright as the sun itself. I have no choice but to consider my own experiences in school, and I think, "How many of those kids were rotten b-st-rds who had it coming?" But they never talk about that.

In America, bullying is beginning to be retaliated against. When I was in high school, I had grown tough enough and smart enough to bully back, and belittle those former tormenters who were less intelligent as me, instead of shooting them. I was an angry nerd in 1996-7 with a trenchcoat, cigarettes, dressed in black with a wallet chain, but I wasn't killing people, just telling them to f--k off. (Not that it was right of me to do, but, like I said, killing never crossed my mind). But more and more, people are growing so desperate that they are resorting to violence. They have nothing left to lose but their lives, which by this point, they percieve as worthless.
 
Wonderful comments.

Thank you Emperor Leto, Obeika, GoldieGirl....what a sensational group of responses to GioSlush's thread! This topic is soooo important, so un-realized, so under-reported. I mean, I think it is a life and death important subject. How can anyone ignore these problems?

Note: One hour after I first posted these comments, I heard on CNN that Cho's own family had been told that their son was autistic, and was non-communicative to them. He was almost completely silent for all his life.

An American psychiatrist who studied the tapes and documents described Cho as schizophrenic, another called him pyschopathic.

Fine, all these things may be true. But it boils down to a mentally impaired individual who did not know how to respond or communicate in normal ways, and was the subject of bullying and humiliation, and then exploded.

Never will I believe that a Cho could not have been helped before he tragically murdered the 30+ innocents.

And the final question is... how do we as a society find the mentally impaired of the world, and then de-fuse the bullying and the damage that is being done?
 
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And the final question is... how do we as a society find the mentally impaired of the world, and then de-fuse the bullying and the damage that is being done?

Perhaps we need to approach teenagers and children as we would adults... or at least approach their parents and school systems: with litigation. Kids are foolish enough to write letters and leave behind a plethora of material evidence. Bullying can qualify as harassment, and should be pursued legally by parents in order to protect their children.

When kids were saying, "My Dad can beat up your Dad," in school, my father told me to sarcastically respond, "Well, I hope your Dad's lawyer is better than my Dad's lawyer, because that's assault." I got it, even though my peers had a tough time figuring it out.

But I think my Dad was on to something in his mind at that point. All I know is, if my children experience anything like that, I'm definitely going to discuss my options with an attorney.
 
Perhaps we need to approach teenagers and children as we would adults... or at least approach their parents and school systems: with litigation. Kids are foolish enough to write letters and leave behind a plethora of material evidence. Bullying can qualify as harassment, and should be pursued legally by parents in order to protect their children.
When kids were saying, "My Dad can beat up your Dad," in school, my father told me to sarcastically respond, "Well, I hope your Dad's lawyer is better than my Dad's lawyer, because that's assault." I got it, even though my peers had a tough time figuring it out.
But I think my Dad was on to something in his mind at that point. All I know is, if my children experience anything like that, I'm definitely going to discuss my options with an attorney.

One thing I notice not talked about in this discussion so far is where does one draw the line between bullying, teasing, harrasment, and "just plain it's a part of growing up"?

Times have changed quite a bit if the first thing someone thinks about is whether or not I need a lawyer to handle the situation. Are we trying to teach our children to think of litigation before attempting to learn acceptable social behavior?

How do we punish or discipline children for their errors if we punish the adults for the actions of their children?

What message are we sending our kids? No matter what they say someone somewhere could take it the wrong way and sue you for those comments because it offended me? Is the message going to be, shut up and say nothing?

Where will kids learn social skills necessary to communicate with others if they can not feel free to express their ideas, thoughts or opinions?

When or how is society going to teach children about dealing with conflicts, if someone is going to threaten them with a lawsuit?
 
I think some teasing is a part of growing up. I think it prepares you for life. I had a boss who was a big bully. I used to call her the red haired, fire breathing dragon lady from hell! We all are going to run across bullys, or just plain mean people in our life. It may be a boss, co-worker, neighbor or even family. The world isn't full of happy nice people all of the time.
 
I think some teasing is a part of growing up. I think it prepares you for life. I had a boss who was a big bully. I used to call her the red haired, fire breathing dragon lady from hell! We all are going to run across bullys, or just plain mean people in our life. It may be a boss, co-worker, neighbor or even family. The world isn't full of happy nice people all of the time.

I couldn't agree with you more. Being bullied and bullying are just part of growing up. Bullying in school merely provides a glimpse of how much pain human beings can and are willing to pose on others in real life. Bullying doesn't exist in school only, there are plenty of them in our everyday life. They just exist in a more civilized form but the misery they cause on other people is on a much higher scale than those we encounter in school.

Having being on both the receiving and giving ends of bullying myself, the only solution I can think of is for the victim of bullying to fight back. Now, I am not encouraging them to start shooting people randomly but there must be some sort of immediate retaliatioin when you are being pickup on. They don't necessary have to win the fight but at least let the bullies know they will not get away with this without a scratch.

Not all kids have the mental capability to fight back when being threatened and I think this is where parents come into place. Parents should build up the "fighting back" character of the kid, let the kid know retaliation is a legitimate mean for survival, both in school and real life. I had a neighbor back in junior high and whenever he was bullied, his dad would told him not to get into fight/trouble and just let the teachers know about it. He never learned how to stand up for himself and until now I still see some part of him hiding in his little corner with his past bullying shadow.
 
I think some teasing is a part of growing up. I think it prepares you for life.

Tell that to the kids that got shot at VT. Ok that was a bit low there, however, there have been numerous cases of workplace shootings as well because the shooters perceived they were being teased or bullied right?

Goldiegirl you have been open and honest about your experiences with teasing, and bullying, (level of perception) and was curious if you caught the question to you from Mikawa Ossan on Post 32 here on this thread?


While I agree with the fact that a certain amount of teasing and to a certain extent bullying as well helps to prepare children to deal with social interaction issues, I am concerned about what people consider to be acceptability levels, or levels of bullying that are tolerated.
 
missed the question on #32. Yes, I felt my brothers hated me...or maybe that they were jealous or envious of me. I was a good student and got to travel because of my excellent grades and appreciation of history and languages. I assumed that was the reason they picked on me. When I bring this up to them now they just laugh at their antics and say they were just being brothers. Right or wrong, I don't know. It doesn't bother me now. I think (or hope) that I am a well adjusted, relatively normal person. It certainly made me tough, I never wanted them to see me cry, and I learned to do all the "boy" things with out their help, just to show them! To this day I can change the oil in my car and replace a flat tire.

The young man in Virginia had issues that had little to do with bullying. Yes, they say he was teased because of his accent, but obviously this person needed psychiatric help. He should have never been in the position he was placed in. It's too bad that in the USA kids with autism and other learning disablities are "mainstreamed" into regular classes because to put them in special classes or schools would be against their civil liberties and labeling them. I don't believe teasing him turned him into a suicidal murderer. It sure helped push him, but had he been given the right kind of mental care this probably wouldn't have happened.

As for the level of acceptability, I would say that if a child is caught teasing or bullying they should be reprimanded. I was! If there is EVER the threat of physical violence, extreme actions should be taken immediately.
 
It's too bad that in the USA kids with autism and other learning disablities are "mainstreamed" into regular classes because to put them in special classes or schools would be against their civil liberties and labeling them.

How come this people with autism, what I feel a real disability, go to school with regular kids, it's like throwing one mouse to a bunch of cats for it to be eaten. First, the person might not be up to par with classmates due to the disability. Second, he/she doesn't have the social skills needed to interact with 'normal' people, if you will.

In schools, you have the special ed programs for people with ADD or such, something which is not a big a deal as autism. See, lately I have had some trouble catching up with my classes due to me lacking concentration. I'm constantly thinking about my upcoming trip to Japan, so, I sometimes wonder whether I have ADD. Is this a major issue, nah, I just need to put my mind in the class and start excelling in grades again!

Mauricio
 
I think that kids with autism and other issues are placed in regular schools with the hope that they will learn to live a normal life. It just doesn't happen. Human nature is such that we tend to pick on the weak or different. It's survival of the fitest. It's nature. Little kids will stare at a person who doesn't look or act normal and know that there is something different. (Adults with our usually better skills try not to stare or make comments. ) When you place a child like that in a "regular" school situation, right or wrong the child will most likely get teased and perhaps bullied. I had a girl in one of my classes that had mental/social problems. She had issues with anger and trouble with authority. She would get angry at a student or our teacher and then she would be given a piece of paper to shred and tear apart until she felt better. During that time when we could have been learning we had to wait for her to calm down...I just don't get why that was fair for her and how it wasn't unfair to the rest of us! Anyway, yes she was teased. (not by me!) People liked to tease her and get her upset just to get to watch her shred the paper and then they teased her about that!

(keep thinking of your trip Mauricio, too soon you'll be there and back and your adventure will be over! My favorite part of any trips are the weeks before you leave, and doing all the planning! FUN!)
 
You guys raise some valid points. Yes, teasing is a part of growing up. People should develop resistance to teasing, and generate self-esteem based on their own accomplishments and a refined sense of self-worth that isn't necessarily dependent on the fickle approval of one's peers.

However, bullying and harassment are two different things. It is a matter of degrees. And kids can be downright cruel to a deeply viscious psychological level that would horrify adults. Kids can find it easier to dehumanize a rival than adults can. And kids do not have the weight of a society that hammers political correctness into their skulls.

For example, a kid can launch into verbal assaults without any fear of legal backlash because it's part of life. A hideous comment such as, "Jenny, close your legs! I can't stand the smell!" will not land the tormenter a sexual harassment lawsuit in middle school like it would in the adult world. (By the way, this is a comment I literally heard someone make once when I wasn in 8th grade.)

We let kids get away with murder, yet we come down upon other adults like the Hammer of Divine Judgement. Perhaps we need to be more consistent?
 
, "Jenny, close your legs! I can't stand the smell!" will not land the tormenter a sexual harassment lawsuit in middle school like it would in the adult world. (By the way, this is a comment I literally heard someone make once when I wasn in 8th grade.)
We let kids get away with murder, yet we come down upon other adults like the Hammer of Divine Judgement. Perhaps we need to be more consistent?

Ah consistency, that is a problem as well since each persons idea of what is allowable is different. However I agree, an open dialogue between parents, schools, professional's and the like would be a good starting place. Schools could be the leaders in figuring out guidelines of what is acceptable or tolerated behaviour.

However it can not just be left of to the schools either. Kids need sometimes to get smacked in the head for making rude or harrassing comments, whether it's to another kid or adult as well.

I had a Japanese teacher friend relay this story to me the other day, she is a rather full figured and one boy asked her, "How many kids do you have?" her first day at a new school, she aksed him why, he replied with "well with a body like that I expected you to say two or three." so it isn't just a problem within the US either it exists here in Japan as well.

Oh and the teacher is single.
 
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