genericdave
後輩
- 6 Aug 2007
- 16
- 0
"がっこうで にほんごを はなしたり きいたりして いすに すわって まどから そと を みる""At class we hear and speak Japanese, sit in chairs and look outside."
Yes you can do both of those, however the top one is used mainly in conversation, the second one is more likely to be used in writing and on top of that when used in conversation it comes across more polite and refined.たべるのが すきです。
I like to eat.
But could I also do:
たべることが すきです。
I am not sure if this is what you are meaning ,but you can do this,If I was using a verb instead of すき would both of these be okay?。
There is no informal version here、in fact putting the (んです) is just plain wrong.The polite version "これは にほんごで なんというか しっていますか?" ,the really polite version "これは にほんごで なんというか ごぞんじですか?"you know how to say it in Japanese
あなたはこれを日本語でなんという(んです)か知ってます。 (polite, informal)]。
For some reason, I would have put sitting in chairs looking out the window first but I don't know if that makes it any more natural or not."がっこうで にほんごを はなしたり きいたりして いすに すわって まどから そと を みる"
In school we talk and listen to Japanese, we sit in chairs and look outside through the window.
Sure you could say this as a statement ""あなたは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっています." but it would sound more natural if you were to put a "よ" on the end. I am sure you will understand that leaving a statement open like that could also be interpreted as a question. However saying this would require a special situation to use it correctly and would not be used very often. Think about it who are you going to say to "that they know how to say this in Japanese" , definitely not a Japanese person I hope???>you know how to say it in Japanese
seems to me more like a statement rather than a question. .
I could add to that an even more simpler form "これ、なんていうん?"。 There are many diderent ways to say something, but you have to look at the context of what is being said.>It seems a bit odd to me at first, but I bet native speakers would simply just say "kore, nihongo de nanto iu no/ndesuka?".
There always have been these forms of speech, Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo which are the five that you speak of. And Don't worry I know all about these and how difficult they are to use ,as I have to try to teach my "Japanese" staff how to correctly use it. But what I was pointing out was that in your sentence "あなたはこれを日本語でなんという(んです)か知っあトます。" the (んです) is just plain wrong and should not be used. Yes you can roughly catergorise but what are you trying to say here "shiru" is a casual (and basic) word, and in more formal situations, that word can be replaced by the many other words that are similar">the masu form can be considered to be a form of teineigo, or polite speech. And perhaps I shouldn't add the word formal since there really is not a direct corresponding category for that in Japanese. There used to be teineigo, kenjougo, sonkeigo, but now there apparently are 5 categories instead of 3.
Roughly speaking it maybe possible to categorize them as formal or informal, from the choice of words. It is informal simply because you can't write this down in a formal piece of writing. "shiru" is a casual (and basic) word, and in more formal situationis, that word can be replaced by the many other words that are similar.
Elizabeth, I was trying to keep it as close to the posters sentence as possible to make it a little easier for him to understand.(I figured changing it around too much will cause confusion to the poster). I would not have put sit in chairs and the look out the window in the same sentence as listening and talking Japanese, the whole sentence ,it just sounds strange to me.For some reason, I would have put sitting in chairs looking out the window first but I don't know if that makes it any more natural or not.It becomes more like "In class, we speak and listen to Japanese while sitting looking out the window." Is there a compound verb for "speak and listen" or "listen and speak" by the way ?
Like "read and write" is 読み書き?
がっこうで(は)いすにすわって、まどのそとをみなが ら、日本語をはなし, ききます.
Sorry, I should have given these things more context. The situation I was imagining when I put "you know how to say it in Japanese" down, was if my classmate gave up on his Japanese in class and just started saying something in English. At that point I would say something to the effect of "Oh come on, you know how to say it in Japanese (don't you?)." Hopefully that clears up a couple things.>you know how to say it in Japanese
seems to me more like a statement rather than a question. .
Sure you could say this as a statement "あなたは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっています." but it would sound more natural if you were to put a "よ" on the end. I am sure you will understand that leaving a statement open like that could also be interpreted as a question.
Sure you could say this as a statement ""あなたは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっていますよ." but it would sound more natural if you were to put a "よ" on the end. I am sure you will understand that leaving a statement open like that could also be interpreted as a question. However saying this would require a special situation to use it correctly and would not be used very often. Think about it who are you going to say to "that they know how to say this in Japanese" , deffinately not a Japanese person I hope???
If you were to say in the third person "かれは これを にほんごで なんていうか しっている." That would be a phrase that would be more plausable.
I could add to that an even more simpler form "これ、なんていうん?"。 There are many diderent ways to say something, but you have to look at the context of what is being said.
There always have been these forms of speech, Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo which are the five that you speak of. And Don't worry I know all about these and how difficult they are to use ,as I have to try to teach my "Japanese" staff how to correctly use it. But what I was pointing out was that in your sentence "あなたはこれを日本語でなんという(んです)か知ってます。" the (んです) is just plain wrong and should not be used. Yes you can roughly catergorise but what are you trying to say here "shiru" is a casual (and basic) word, and in more formal situationis, that word can be replaced by the many other words that are similar"
Think about it who are you going to say to "that they know how to say this in Japanese" , deffinately not a Japanese person I hope???
the masu form can be considered to be a form of teineigo, or polite speech. And perhaps I shouldn't add the word formal since there really is not a direct corresponding category for that in Japanese. There used to be teineigo, kenjougo, sonkeigo, but now there apparently are 5 categories instead of 3.
There always have been these forms of speech, Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo which are the five that you speak of. And Don't worry I know all about these and how difficult they are to use ,as I have to try to teach my "Japanese" staff how to correctly use it. But what I was pointing out was that in your sentence
Sorry, I should have given these things more context. The situation I was imagining when I put "you know how to say it in Japanese" down, was if my classmate gave up on his Japanese in class and just started saying something in English. At that point I would say something to the effect of "Oh come on, you know how to say it in Japanese (don't you?)." Hopefully that clears up a couple things.
Well, mostly. But there are definately times in informal writing to give attention to and emphasize each verb independently -Te structures are also there for concurrent actions. If the context supports it as in 話して、聞いて it sounds fine. I just thought that pattern didn't flow very nice at the end of the OP's れいぶん.Sorry I am in a hurry but I will try to help with some questions.
There are many ways of linking verbs, depending on how the verbs are related. In your case, you can use the -tari -tari suru form, since you are listing verbs that are of similar importance, with no attention on the sequence of the verbs. Sometimes you can just use the -te form. More advanced students may use "nari" form, etc.
Wow! Thanks everyone! This stuff is all very helpful. I don't have time to go through it all right now, but later I'll be taking a longer look.
Yes, I agree that my example sentences sound rather strange. I created them purely for the purpose of going past my current (rather limited) knowledge of how this stuff works.
Sorry, I should have given these things more context. The situation I was imagining when I put "you know how to say it in Japanese" down, was if my classmate gave up on his Japanese in class and just started saying something in English. At that point I would say something to the effect of "Oh come on, you know how to say it in Japanese (don't you?)." Hopefully that clears up a couple things.
Ergh. Gotta go. Thanks again!
If that is the case you could also say thisSorry, I should have given these things more context. The situation I was imagining when I put "you know how to say it in Japanese" down, was if my classmate gave up on his Japanese in class and just started saying something in English. At that point I would say something to the effect of "Oh come on, you know how to say it in Japanese (don't you?)." Hopefully that clears up a couple things.
Ergh. Gotta go. Thanks again!
That is my point, anything can be literally translated, but what good is it going to do you in the real world? You say subjective, but there are things you can and can not say in any language.During translation, I tend to stick with a more literal translation of what is asked to be translated, since what's natural can be subjective. It really depends on your method and style of translating. "� なたはこれを にほんごで なんていうか しって� 「ますよ" with the よ has the nuance that the speaker either confirming something that the listener already knows, or is telling the listener that you can/have the ability to know that you know how to say it in Japanese, as if the listener didn't know this already. Adding "yo" would also hint that the speaker already knows much about the listener's ability in Japanese.
...There used to be teineigo, kenjougo, sonkeigo, but now there apparently are 5 categories instead of 3......
"Keigo" cannot be mentioned in the breadth as kenjougo and sonkeigo etc., since kenjougo and sonkeigo are really subcategories of keigo. Also, "kenjyougo" and "kensongo" are exactly the same thing, so it is impossible to list them together as if they are two different entities.
That was a typo, I was meaning to put a ? at the end of that sentence to imply a question, why? B/c there has always been these teineigo, sonkeigo and kenjougo, but I have never heard of there being five different forms of "keigo" and the extra two that you were refering to "bikago and teichougo", I think you will find that most Japanese will not know either. Going of that page, it was written this year in February?There always have been these forms of speech, Teineigo, Kensongo, Sonkeigo, Kenjyougo and Keigo which are the five that you speak of.
Honorifics in Japanese are broadly referred to as keigo (敬語, literally "respectful language"), and fall under three main categories: sonkeigo (尊敬語), respectful language; kensongo (謙遜語) or kenjōgo (謙譲語), humble language; and teineigo (丁寧語), polite language. Linguistically, the former two are referent honorifics, used for someone being talked about, and the last is an addressee honorific, used for someone being talked to. Sometimes two more categories are also used: teichōgo (丁重語) and bikago (美化語), "word beautification". Each type of speech has its own vocabulary and verb endings.
I was pushing my boundaries to the point where even I could tell that it wasn't natural in the slightest. I really should be focusing on learning natural Japanese, as opposed to trying to formulate insane word mashings. Now I realized that this kind of thing would be better with the -tari -tari suru form.わたしたちは クラスで にほんごを きいて はなし て、 いすに すわって そとに みます
Very nice, I wasn't so far off on this one. While this post is getting long enough as it is, I can't help but ask what the difference between "たべることが できる" and "たべられます" is. I've read a bit about the second form and I find it a bit strange.I am not sure if this is what you are meaning ,but you can do this,
"たべることが できる。"
That's more along the lines that I was thinking. Just a simple encouragement. Nothing too complicated.If that is the case you could also say this
"これは にほんごで はなせるでしょう。"
"これは にほんごで いえるでしょう。"
"これは にほんごで しっているでしょう"
And one last one. "これは にほんごで ひょうげん できるでしょ� E 、。"
What I get is that you are trying to encourage your friend right?
I wholeheartedly agree. Although I'm still at a point where grammar is my main focus (only been studying for 2 months or so) I should definitely be keeping my focus on the real language, not the grammar.I know so many Japanese that have a better understanding of English grammar than I do, but they could not speak a complete sentence to save their lives. It is this text book mentality that holds people back, they get to caught up in the grammar side of things and consequently they suffer in speaking side。This also applies to people learning Japanese too.
Would you end a sentence in English "We do things in class like speaking and listening to Japanese..." "We speak and listen to Japanese and so on..." ? Unless you were being incredibly casual....?Alright, so by now I've realized the incredible err of my ways when I posted this:
I was pushing my boundaries to the point where even I could tell that it wasn't natural in the slightest. I really should be focusing on learning natural Japanese, as opposed to trying to formulate insane word mashings. Now I realized that this kind of thing would be better with the -tari -tari suru form.
There's no difference in meaning. What have you read that would possibly make it appear strange ? ☝Very nice, I wasn't so far off on this one. While this post is getting long enough as it is, I can't help but ask what the difference between "たべることが できる" and "たべられます" is. I've read a bit about the second form and I find it a bit strange.
Depends on the verb.But could I also do:
たべることが すきです。
If I was using a verb instead of すき would both of these be okay?