Some verb suffix

ax · 21 Dec 2004

I often heard this suffixes in conversation.
first, I can't make a good distinction between
-される and -させる

next, I don't know how this two below mean, and how I can use it.
-ております、-切ります

Can anyone offer samples and explanation?

ax

ToMach · 21 Dec 2004

ax said:
I often heard this suffixes in conversation.
first, I can't make a good distinction between
-される and -させる

-される is a no a true suffix but the passive form of the verb する. The passive suffix is -(r)are-ru
ex: 本が出版された a book has been published
させる is the causative (to make someone do something) form of する or one form of the causative suffix -(s)ase-ru
ex: お母さんが子供を勉強させた The mother made the children study

next, I don't know how this two below mean, and how I can use it.
-ております、-切ります

-ております is just a special polite form for durative -ている, more formal than -ています
ex: XXX会社に勤めております I work in the XXX company
The auxiliary -切る means that the action is done completely, that nothing is left undone
ex: お金を使い切る to use all one's money

ax · 21 Dec 2004

thank you tomach for your enlightenment...
now how do I say...

I have my car washed.

in japanese.
Can I use the -させて form for this?

ax

ToMach · 21 Dec 2004

ax said:
thank you tomach for your enlightenment...
now how do I say...
I have my car washed.
in japanese.
Can I use the -させて form for this?

Expression of interactions is not easy in Japanese, because you have also the form in -てもらう which has also a causative-like meaning, but with the nuance that you ask for a service or a favor, which is the basic meaning of the verb もらう (ask/receive)
Here, without specifying the actor of the action (the person who washes the car), I don't think you can use the usual causative, and it's more natural to use -てもらう

ax · 21 Dec 2004

so in this case, I say:

車を洗ってもらいました。 I have my car washed.
スーツをしてもらいました。 I have my suit made.
髪を切ってもらいました。 I have my hair cut.

ax

Elizabeth · 22 Dec 2004

ax said:
スーツをしてもらいました。 I have my suit made.

Without knowing all the implications スーツをして might carry, just to be perfectly safe I would go with the standard verb make.

I had my suit made. (スーツを作ってもらいました）。

Although maybe 'suru' is alright....if you can say "・スーツを新調する" :?
(I had a new suit made).

beluga · 24 Dec 2004

ToMach said:
-される is a no a true suffix but the passive form of the verb する. The passive suffix is -(r)are-ru
ex: 本が出版された a book has been published
させる is the causative (to make someone do something) form of する or one form of the causative suffix -(s)ase-ru
ex: お母さんが子供を勉強させた The mother made the children study

There is a difference between される form of する and -される suffix.
される form of する is a passive form. For example, XXXに検査される which means, being checked by XXX.
勉強される
コピーされる
検討される
-される prefix is a causative passive form. For example, XXXに読まされる which means being forced by XXX to read. This is only applicable to godan verbs (verbs that does not end with いる、える and not irregular verbs like くる and する)
行かされる
泳がされる
書かされる

ToMach · 24 Dec 2004

beluga said:
There is a difference between される form of する and -される suffix.
される form of する is a passive form. For example, XXXに検査される which means, being checked by XXX.
勉強される
コピーされる
検討される
-される prefix is a causative passive form. For example, XXXに読まされる which means being forced by XXX to read. This is only applicable to godan verbs (verbs that does not end with いる、える and not irregular verbs like くる and する)
行かされる
泳がされる
書かされる

A more precise analysis would be to say that :

The passive suffix is -(r)are-, which is attached to the stem of verbs.
Ex: たべられる = tabe+(r)are+ru / かかれる = kak+(r)are+ru
Stem+passive+conclusive
In traditional grammar, you say that there are 2 passive suffixes, which both attach to the mizen base in -a of verbs : られる for godan/yodan and れる for ichidan

The causative suffix is -(s)ase-
Ex: たべさせる = tabe+(s)ase+ru / かかせる = kak+(s)ase+ru
Stem+causative+conclusive
In traditional grammar you say that there are 2 causative suffixes, which both attach to the mizen base in -a of verbs : せる for godan/yodan and させる for ichidan

Going back to the causative-passive form, it is in fact for consonant verbs (traditional godan/yodan) -asare- :
よまされる = yom+asare+ru
But this form can further be analyzed as alternate causative -(s)as- + passive -(r)are-
ex: よまされる = yom+(s)as+(r)are+ru Stem+causative2+passive+conclusive
See for example よます, alternate causative form equivalent to よませる
For vowel verbs (ichidan), we clearly have causative+passive combination :
たべさせられる = tabe+(s)ase+(r)are+ru Stem+causative+passive+conclusive

Glenn · 24 Dec 2004

I thought causative passive in modern Japanese was formed by -(s)aserareru, so that you would get 読ませられる and, as ToMach has already shown, 食べさせられる. To me 読まされる looks like ancient Japanese. Am I wrong about that? Is it used today?

beluga · 24 Dec 2004

Glenn said:
I thought causative passive in modern Japanese was formed by -(s)aserareru, so that you would get 読ませられる and, as ToMach has already shown, 食べさせられる. To me 読まされる looks like ancient Japanese. Am I wrong about that? Is it used today?

I have no idea at all and I hope someone more experience here can shed some light on this too. From what I learned from school, it comes in the 2 forms you mentioned.
行かせられる（行かされる）
書かせられる（書かされる）
However, for Type I's verb that ends with su (like 話す), Type II (-iru and -eru) and Type III (irregular) verbs, it all ends with させられる
騙させられる
話させられる
食べさせられる
来させられる
させられる

CorDarei · 25 Dec 2004

Glenn said:
I thought causative passive in modern Japanese was formed by -(s)aserareru, so that you would get 読ませられる and, as ToMach has already shown, 食べさせられる. To me 読まされる looks like ancient Japanese. Am I wrong about that? Is it used today?

It seems that there is an alternate form of the causative of よむ, which is 読ます. So when you make that passive, it becomes 読まされる. But that's not the regular form, and I only get ~4000 Google hits, so I don't think it's too common.

PaulTB · 25 Dec 2004

CorDarei said:
It seems that there is an alternate form of the causative of よむ, which is 読ます.

If you look at the [V] link on WWWJDIC entries that form is among those automatically generated.

CorDarei said:
So when you make that passive, it becomes 読まされる. But that's not the regular form, and I only get ~4000 Google hits, so I don't think it's too common.

"読ませられる" 645 hits
"読まされる" 16,500 hits

Which was it that's 'not too common' again?

Which was it that's 'not too common' again?

CorDarei · 26 Dec 2004

PaulTB said:
読ませられる" 645 hits
"読まされる" 16,500 hits

I was referring to 読ます as uncommon, because it gets 4,210 hits, to 読ませる with ~162,000. It is rather interesting that the passive form of the first seems more common.

epigene · 27 Dec 2004

CorDarei said:
I was referring to 読ます as uncommon, because it gets 4,210 hits, to 読ませる with ~162,000. It is rather interesting that the passive form of the first seems more common.

The difference stems from the cultural approach taken by the Japanese in language usage.
読ます is very direct, actually too direct for use under normal conditions. It suggests, from the Japanese viewpoint, an order that is authoritarian and cannot be refused.
読ませる is also an order, but it is received as more moderate and polite.

Just for your information.

Some verb suffix

ax

後輩

ToMach

先輩

ax

後輩

ToMach

先輩

ax

後輩

Elizabeth

先輩

beluga

先輩

ToMach

先輩

Glenn

一切皆苦

beluga

先輩

CorDarei

ロマンチスト

PaulTB

Manga Psychic

CorDarei

ロマンチスト

epigene

相変わらず不束者です

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