Some question regarding basics?

Kiyo90 · 12 Jan 2011

Hey guys, I have some questions regarding the basics that I'm confusing myself with...

1) The difference between 思う and 思っている。For some reason, I've convinced myself that 思う is for myself and 思っている is for other people. Same goes for 言う、考える、等々。When I think about it logically, shouldn't 思う be used for a thought that occurred just that once or when talking about a particular thought at a particular time? And 思っている for thoughts that expresses my view on something? Or am I completely off and just confusing myself even more?

例：あの時、きれいだと思った。vs 彼女がきれいだと思っている。
Sorry, I'm kinda bad at giving examples...

2) Words of expression such as ほしい、うれしい、かなしい、等々. For first and second person, it is like the dictionary form but for third person need the がるon stem?
例：僕はうれしい. vs彼はうれしがっている。

3) In a subordinate clause, should it always be a がinstead ofは to designate subject? I feel like it's wrong, but it's somehow stuck in my head as such, so if anyone can clear it up, that would be awesome! It's probably a problem of my understanding ofがandは.
例：
彼は郵便局へ行った。If this was the action…

彼が郵便局へ行ったと言った。"I said he went to the post office." The unspoken person doing 言うis me and the person doing行くis him.

彼は郵便局へ行ったと言った。But if I kept はin the clause instead of が, doesn't this sentence change its meaning to "He said he went to the post office."

彼は郵便局へ行ったが、手紙が忘れちゃった。<= This is what I feel is right… "He went to the post office but he forgot the letter." Does the はmark彼 as the topic/subject of both parts of the sentence?

彼が郵便局へ行ったが、手紙が忘れちゃった。<= But I feel this is right too? "He went to the post office but he forgot the letter." が marks彼 as the subject for the first part but there isn't a spoken subject for the second part? So it could have been that "I forgot the letter" except that it doesn't make sense. ..

Thanks a bunch!

Toritoribe · 13 Jan 2011

Kiyo90 said:
1)
shouldn't 思う be used for a thought that occurred just that once or when talking about a particular thought at a particular time? And 思っている for thoughts that expresses my view on something?

Yeah, this is basically correct, but 思う can be used for the second and third person, as same as 思っている for the first person.

彼女がきれいだと思っている is an ambiguous sentence.;-) It can mean both "She thinks something is beautiful" and "I think she is beautiful".

Kiyo90 said:
2) Words of expression such as ほしい、うれしい、かなしい、等々. For first and second person, it is like the dictionary form but for third person need the がるon stem?
例：僕はうれしい. vs彼はうれしがっている。

verb form vs adj form -- question

Kiyo90 said:
3) In a subordinate clause, should it always be a がinstead ofは to designate subject? I feel like it's wrong, but it's somehow stuck in my head as such, so if anyone can clear it up, that would be awesome! It's probably a problem of my understanding ofがandは.
例：
彼は郵便局へ行った。If this was the action…
彼が郵便局へ行ったと言った。"I said he went to the post office." The unspoken person doing 言うis me and the person doing行くis him.
彼は郵便局へ行ったと言った。But if I kept はin the clause instead of が, doesn't this sentence change its meaning to "He said he went to the post office."

「彼が郵便局へ行った」と言った。
彼が「郵便局へ行った」と言った。
「彼は郵便局へ行った」と言った。
彼は「郵便局へ行った」と言った。

All the interpretations above are possible. Thus, the both sentences can mean "I said he went to the post office" and "He said he went to the post office".

Kiyo90 said:
彼は郵便局へ行ったが、手紙が忘れちゃった。<= This is what I feel is right… "He went to the post office but he forgot the letter." Does the はmark彼 as the topic/subject of both parts of the sentence?

Yes, it's correct except 手紙が. It should be 手紙を. Besides, 手紙を忘れてしまった is suitable to 彼は郵便局へ行ったが.

彼は郵便局へ行ったが、手紙を忘れてしまった。( written word)
彼は、郵便局に行ったんだけど、手紙を忘れちゃったんだ。(colloquial/conversational)

Kiyo90 said:
彼が郵便局へ行ったが、手紙が忘れちゃった。<= But I feel this is right too? "He went to the post office but he forgot the letter." が marks彼 as the subject for the first part but there isn't a spoken subject for the second part? So it could have been that "I forgot the letter" except that it doesn't make sense. ..

彼が郵便局へ行ったが、手紙を忘れてしまった。
This is also correct. The nuance is different from 彼は, though. The following threads might be somewhat helpful.

STILL confused about は and が; example sentences
は, が and を what's the difference between the following sentences?
は and が part 2: subordinate clauses

Elizabeth · 13 Jan 2011

Toritoribe said:
Yeah, this is basically correct, but 思う can be used for the second and third person, as same as 思っている for the first person.
彼女がきれいだと思っている is an ambiguous sentence.;-) It can mean both "She thinks something is beautiful" and "I think she is beautiful".

To strongly express what you as the speaker thinks, だと思っている is correct. "You may not agree with me (Anata wa hantai suru kamoshirenai ga,)..but this is my opinion..." sort of nuance. And to distinguish between the self and other, as tori mentioned, 私は is used without a problem.

But だと思う may be less inappropriate for everyday conversation.

Kiyo90 · 13 Jan 2011

Thank you as always for your help Toritoribe and Elizabeth.

After reading through the threads linked and your answers, I got the following summary: (Are they correct?)

For the思う and 思っている thing, both forms can be used for first/third person, just depending on the situation and thought. 思っている suggests a strong opinion of the speaker, which is probably why the textbook suggests to not use this with first person.
So to make彼女がきれいだと思っている less ambiguous, I can change it to:
私は彼女がきれいだと思う。For "I think she is pretty."
彼女はきれいだと思っている。 For "She thinks X is pretty."

Useたい/ほしい for first/second person and たがっている/ほしがっている for second/third person.
However, たがっている/ほしがっている has a slight negative connotation and should not be used with strangers. Instead, we can use the たい/ほしい form, follow by forms such as という、ようだ、そうだ、らしい、などなど, those that suggest you heard/seen it from themselves or another source.
For the particles used to mark object desired:
を forたがっている/ほしがっている, since these are both technically verbs and take on a direct object.
を forたい, suggesting a weaker desire.
がfor たい/ほしい. In case ofたい, suggests a stronger desire.

So in the examples of:
お寿司を食べたい。<=Weaker desire
お寿司が食べたい。<=Stronger desire
お寿司がほしい。<= Where would this go? Or is it not comparable, since you just want the sushi and not to want to eat it?

For the が/はusage in subordinate clauses:
If it's an adjectival clause (modifying noun), the subject should be marked with が. がcan be replaced withの if the word after が is a verb or adjective that then modifies a noun.
But what would be the difference between:
私が読んだ本
私の読んだ本

If it's an adverbial clause (modifying verb), the subject can be marked with は.
I didn't quite get what you meant by はtend to cover the whole sentence… ?

が can be used if something is mentioned for the first time and that something isn't a noun like 私、彼、これ、等々(I'll call these general nouns for the next part…).
が emphasizes the clause/word in front of it if the clause/word is a general noun or something that's already mentioned, whereas はemphasize the clause/word after it. はis neutral when used with general nouns.

These are the very general ideas I think I got from reading the other threads… are these anything close to reality? I understand there's probably exceptions to everything, but are these at least close?

PS: The difference between written and spoken Japanese… is it generally that writing is more formal? What about in informal writings like journals/diaries? Would you use words like よ、ね、けどin informal writing? Also (this has been on my mind for a while now…) but is it in speaking or writing that you drop だ(the copula) if it's the last syllable?

I apologize for the super long post!

Toritoribe · 14 Jan 2011

Kiyo90 said:
思っている suggests a strong opinion of the speaker, which is probably why the textbook suggests to not use this with first person.

It completely depends on the context. It can't be said 思っている always expresses a strong opinion.

Kiyo90 said:
So to make彼女がきれいだと思っている less ambiguous, I can change it to:
私は彼女がきれいだと思う。For "I think she is pretty."
彼女はきれいだと思っている。 For "She thinks X is pretty."

The first example has no ambiguity. The subject of 思う is 私. However, as for the second one, it still can be interpreted both as "She thinks something is beautiful" and "I think she is beautiful". と is a quotation particle, so has higher possibility of interpretation than other structures.

Kiyo90 said:
Useたい/ほしい for first/second person and たがっている/ほしがっている for second/third person.
However, たがっている/ほしがっている has a slight negative connotation and should not be used with strangers. Instead, we can use the たい/ほしい form, follow by forms such as という、ようだ、そうだ、らしい、などなど, those that suggest you heard/seen it from themselves or another source.

It's not "You'd better to avoid using it" but "You can't use it since it's grammatically incorrect".

ほしい/たい is used only for the speaker in declarative sentences, and only for the addressee/second person in interrogative sentences. たがる can be used for both second and third person in declarative sentences, and only for third person in interrogative sentences. The sentences in novels or complex/compound sentence structures are the exceptions to this rule.

Kiyo90 said:
を forたい, suggesting a weaker desire.
がfor たい/ほしい. In case ofたい, suggests a stronger desire.

It might be so in most cases, but it would be from the emphasis done by が.

Kiyo90 said:
So in the examples of:
お寿司を食べたい。<=Weaker desire
お寿司が食べたい。<=Stronger desire

お寿司を食べたい。(simple statement)
お寿司が食べたい。(The word preceding が or お寿司 is emphasized, as in "It is sushi that I want to eat".)

Kiyo90 said:
But what would be the difference between:
私が読んだ本
私の読んだ本

These are the same in meaning. が and の are basically interchangeable. This の originated in classical Japanese. の used to indicate the subject, and が used to be used as a possession particle in the past.

Kiyo90 said:
I didn't quite get what you meant by はtend to cover the whole sentence… ?

わたしは来たときにはいませんでした

わたしは is interpreted as the subject of the main clause or "いませんでした", just like I wrote previously.

Kiyo90 said:
What about in informal writings like journals/diaries? Would you use words like よ、ね、けどin informal writing?

Of course yes. I just said 彼は郵便局へ行ったが、手紙を忘れちゃった sounds awkward.

Kiyo90 said:
Also (this has been on my mind for a while now…) but is it in speaking or writing that you drop だ(the copula) if it's the last syllable?

There might be that tendency especially in colloquial conversation. Or, more accurately to say, ～は…だ type structure is not often used in daily conversation. The sentence final particles would be far more commnly used.

Some question regarding basics?

Kiyo90

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Elizabeth

先輩

Kiyo90

先輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

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