So say you know the meaning of two or three kanji...

Razahia · 9 Aug 2013

I was looking around the translate a kanji post and I saw these two kanji

正月

Someone asked how it's read.

And I'm looking at these two and I actually know them from practicing each day.

正 meaning correct or proper and 月 meaning Month/Moon.

Someone replied as it's read as shougatsu.

And I know these are On readings for both of them but I always wondered why it's not seigetsu or seigatsu.

I'm just wondering what's the point of memorizing the readings if I can't read them.

letianchen · 9 Aug 2013

Learn the sounds as words. Makes your life easier.

Whenever you get a word you don't know, you can start guessing sounds from previous words you actually know, then you can rule them out because some just " sound " better. Of course you need a good vocabulary first.

SomeCallMeChris · 9 Aug 2013

Razahia said:
I'm just wondering what's the point of memorizing the readings if I can't read them.

Exactly. There is no point in learning readings in isolation, it doesn't help you read words.
Learn that 正しい is ただしい, 正解 is せいかい, 正面 is しょうめん； learn that 月の光 is つきのひかり and １月 is いちがつ,
and first it seems like every word has its own reading... but then you start to run into your 正月 and realize that it shares readings.

Also, the most common kanji have the most readings and they are applied in the most irregular fashion. The amount of effort to memorize all those readings is extraordinary, and then you -still- have to memorize the reading of each word!

I deeply regret many wasted hours memorizing readings in isolation (only to keep forgetting them anyway!) and strongly encourage you not to waste time in the same way.

pauro12 · 9 Aug 2013

I was thought by my teacher as well to memorize it as words with meanings, and don't memorize it per reading because you will go crazy doing it with minimal significance. So what I'm actually doing is, know a word, look for its kanji and memorize it. Rather than, know a kanji and look for the words that this kanji is used. Is this effective? :?

SomeCallMeChris · 9 Aug 2013

It can be effective to learn the kanji themselves, it's just that for each one you learn you should learn a word that it is used as or used in.
It's trying to learn readings detached from meaning that is a kind of black hole of learning effort, but beyond that there are many effective ways of approaching kanji.

Many kanji do stand as words on their own (or with just okurigana to make a verb or adjective) which makes it easy to pick a word to learn for that kanji! For me anyway, but, I prefer to learn kun-readings first in order to more closely associate the character with the native Japanese word(s).

pauro12 · 9 Aug 2013

SomeCallMeChris said:
It can be effective to learn the kanji themselves, it's just that for each one you learn you should learn a word that it is used as or used in.
It's trying to learn readings detached from meaning that is a kind of black hole of learning effort, but beyond that there are many effective ways of approaching kanji.

Many kanji do stand as words on their own (or with just okurigana to make a verb or adjective) which makes it easy to pick a word to learn for that kanji! For me anyway, but, I prefer to learn kun-readings first in order to more closely associate the character with the native Japanese word(s).

Exactly what I've been doing, I never tried to memorie the onyomi and konyomi of each kanji, but I do read a lot of Japanese words, look for its kanji, and learn why was that kanji was used to gain full understanding, and memorize. Usually, I read manga with furigana. Is this a good approach as well? My Japanese is still at low average to average though. ☝

eeky · 9 Aug 2013

pauro12 said:
Exactly what I've been doing, I never tried to memorie the onyomi and konyomi of each kanji, but I do read a lot of Japanese words, look for its kanji, and learn why was that kanji was used to gain full understanding, and memorize. Usually, I read manga with furigana. Is this a good approach as well? My Japanese is still at low average to average though. ☝

Some people say that furigana makes you lazy, but if you can be disciplined about looking at both the reading and the kanji, and trying to associate them in your mind, then it sure is a hell of a lot quicker than endlessly looking up kanji readings, which is what can otherwise happen.

pauro12 · 9 Aug 2013

eeky said:
Some people say that furigana makes you lazy, but if you can be disciplined about looking at both the reading and the kanji, and trying to associate them in your mind, then it sure is a hell of a lot quicker than endlessly looking up kanji readings, which is what can otherwise happen.

Actually my aim for furigana is just to know that this kana + kanji combination is this word, and plan to both memorize the word and the kanji of that word, so maybe it won't be lazy at all considering that I memorize both? I don't know though. But I guess it's a pretty good approach.

letianchen · 9 Aug 2013

I personally use Anqi(or Anki, idk what its called), and put 30-40 new words every day.

I dont retain stuff very well, because i'm pretty lazy in general. But usually I will only forget a couple. It takes time to learn all these words, theres no other way around it.

pauro12 · 9 Aug 2013

letianchen said:
I personally use Anqi(or Anki, idk what its called), and put 30-40 new words every day.

I dont retain stuff very well, because i'm pretty lazy in general. But usually I will only forget a couple. It takes time to learn all these words, theres no other way around it.

But there are ways that you do memorize it without giving you headache, I believe.

Glenn · 9 Aug 2013

letianchen said:
I personally use Anqi(or Anki, idk what its called), and put 30-40 new words every day.

Man, this is ironic. It's Anki, as in 暗記, as in "memorize". haha

Maybe you should put 暗記 into Anki so you can memorize it.

letianchen · 9 Aug 2013

LOL. I didn't know 暗記 meant memorization ^-^.
On a side note, I find it rather funny my brain likes to remember random words that I will probably never hear again from anime, but rather common words I forget quite often. The human brain is funny.

FinancialWar · 9 Aug 2013

Razahia said:
Someone replied as it's read as shougatsu.

And I know these are On readings for both of them but I always wondered why it's not seigetsu or seigatsu.

I'm just wondering what's the point of memorizing the readings if I can't read them.

Why is "dead" pronounced as dEd and not deed?

Razahia · 9 Aug 2013

SomeCallMeChris said:
Exactly. There is no point in learning readings in isolation, it doesn't help you read words.
Learn that 正しい is ただしい, 正解 is せいかい, 正面 is しょうめん； learn that 月の光 is つきのひかり and １月 is いちがつ,
and first it seems like every word has its own reading... but then you start to run into your 正月 and realize that it shares readings.

Also, the most common kanji have the most readings and they are applied in the most irregular fashion. The amount of effort to memorize all those readings is extraordinary, and then you -still- have to memorize the reading of each word!

I deeply regret many wasted hours memorizing readings in isolation (only to keep forgetting them anyway!) and strongly encourage you not to waste time in the same way.

Memorizing each kanji's readings alone is what i have been doing currently. I've memorized about 50 right now. Wouldn't memorizing the kanji in sentences also be rather impossible? I'd assume each letter has hundreds of readings in a compound

eeky · 10 Aug 2013

Razahia said:
Memorizing each kanji's readings alone is what i have been doing currently. I've memorized about 50 right now. Wouldn't memorizing the kanji in sentences also be rather impossible? I'd assume each letter has hundreds of readings in a compound

I'm not sure what you mean by "letter" or "each letter has hundreds of readings in a compound". An individual kanji character typically has two or three common readings, and maybe some extra ones used in special cases, such as names. A few common kanji characters have more than this, but none has anywhere near "hundreds". I would not recommend trying to learn kanji readings by rote, without reference to their use in words. I tried once and quickly gave up the task as being impossibly mind-numbing. Of course, your brain may work a different way...

Razahia · 10 Aug 2013

eeky said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "letter" or "each letter has hundreds of readings in a compound". An individual kanji character typically has two or three common readings, and maybe some extra ones used in special cases, such as names. A few common kanji characters have more than this, but none has anywhere near "hundreds". I would not recommend trying to learn kanji readings by rote, without reference to their use in words. I tried once and quickly gave up the task as being impossibly mind-numbing. Of course, your brain may work a different way...

Err I meant symbol.

As for the moment memorizing the readings isn't so difficult but as I'm only at number 50 I guess my memory isn't killing me yet.

I should try to memorize the words themselves. Just don't have a great resource for that.

eeky · 10 Aug 2013

Razahia said:
Err I meant symbol.

The usual word is "character".

Angel Valis · 10 Aug 2013

FinancialWar said:
Why is "dead" pronounced as dEd and not deed?

Because English tends to not make any sense if you look at it too closely. Pronunciation, spelling, and even word formation has changed radically in English over the centuries ("eyen" used to be the plural of "eye" and "house" was both singular and plural).

In Middle English, the word for "dead" was "deed". However, in M.E. the vowels were pronounced differently and the e's would have be pronounced as long a's as in "bane" (IPA: /ben/). Give it another few hundred years and the word shifted into Modern English "dead".

My first name, Sean (IPA: /ʃɔn/), is relatively hard for non-English speakers to figure out on first glance....hell, some English speakers get it wrong. The trick is knowing that it's the Irish version of John and that in Irish Gaelic, "si" or "se" followed by a vowel is pronounced "sh". Ever see the name Siobhan? That's pronounced "Shihwahn" or "Shuhvahn" (IPA: /ʃɪwan/ or /ʃəvan/).

Just thought I'd share...I'm bored.

On topic however, spoken Japanese existed long before it had a written form. Kanji characters were appropriated at several points throughout Japanese history, and they were both given Japanese pronunciations and used with approximations of the Chinese pronunciations. Sometimes this has led to characters using a specific reading in just a very few words. As others have suggested, it's better to learn words along with the kanji and their readings, rather than just try to learn their readings by themselves. There will come a time that you can guess the reading of a new word based on how the characters are read in other words, but then you'll come across words that are read completely differently than anything you've learned so far.

Razahia · 10 Aug 2013

Angel Valis said:
Because English tends to not make any sense if you look at it too closely. Pronunciation, spelling, and even word formation has changed radically in English over the centuries ("eyen" used to be the plural of "eye" and "house" was both singular and plural).

In Middle English, the word for "dead" was "deed". However, in M.E. the vowels were pronounced differently and the e's would have be pronounced as long a's as in "bane" (IPA: /ben/). Give it another few hundred years and the word shifted into Modern English "dead".

My first name, Sean (IPA: /ʃɔn/), is relatively hard for non-English speakers to figure out on first glance....hell, some English speakers get it wrong. The trick is knowing that it's the Irish version of John and that in Irish Gaelic, "si" or "se" followed by a vowel is pronounced "sh". Ever see the name Siobhan? That's pronounced "Shihwahn" or "Shuhvahn" (IPA: /ʃɪwan/ or /ʃəvan/).

Just thought I'd share...I'm bored.

On topic however, spoken Japanese existed long before it had a written form. Kanji characters were appropriated at several points throughout Japanese history, and they were both given Japanese pronunciations and used with approximations of the Chinese pronunciations. Sometimes this has led to characters using a specific reading in just a very few words. As others have suggested, it's better to learn words along with the kanji and their readings, rather than just try to learn their readings by themselves. There will come a time that you can guess the reading of a new word based on how the characters are read in other words, but then you'll come across words that are read completely differently than anything you've learned so far.

Yea I'm going to start doing that. What do people use as a resource while learning to read how words are read in kanji?

Angel Valis · 10 Aug 2013

Razahia said:
Yea I'm going to start doing that. What do people use as a resource while learning to read how words are read in kanji?

Rikaikun (Chrome) / Rikaichan (Firefox) is an extension that lets you hover over words on (most) webpages and get definitions/readings., though these aren't always correct (usually they are, but occasionally it will display an old, outdated, or dialectical reading and not label it as such).

You can also look up words on jisho.org and it will give you readings as well (same caveats as with Rikaikun/chan; they're based on the same dictionary I believe).

If you have a textbook, then just work on the words that the book associates with each kanji to begin with.

FinancialWar · 10 Aug 2013

Angel Valis said:
Because English tends to not make any sense if you look at it too closely.

Either is Japanese. Hence why I reply to OP using "dead" example.

Razahia · 10 Aug 2013

Angel Valis said:
Rikaikun (Chrome) / Rikaichan (Firefox) is an extension that lets you hover over words on (most) webpages and get definitions/readings., though these aren't always correct (usually they are, but occasionally it will display an old, outdated, or dialectical reading and not label it as such).

You can also look up words on jisho.org and it will give you readings as well (same caveats as with Rikaikun/chan; they're based on the same dictionary I believe).

If you have a textbook, then just work on the words that the book associates with each kanji to begin with.

Alright. Thanks, Any good reccomendations for a textbook?

Angel Valis · 11 Aug 2013

Razahia said:
Alright. Thanks, Any good reccomendations for a textbook?

Genki I and II are what I used in university. I've heard good things about Nakama but they're more expensive (I actually have them...but I haven't actually looked at them much).

So say you know the meaning of two or three kanji...

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一切皆苦

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黒川

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