Simple english(sorta) that doesn't translate easily

Kaminari · 28 Oct 2005

ACK! It's dawn already...

bentenmusume · 28 Oct 2005

Elizabeth said:
Anyway, most of the time anything other than "thank you" to a compliment is considered odd, especially by a learner. The book was probably just trying to introduce new vocabulary. There are always a huge number of non-realistic sentences in any beginning text.

There's nothing unnatural about the use of とんでもない in the original conversation about the house. Ken has offered a compliment to Michiko about how magnificent her house is, and Michiko responds by denying/downplaying this. The gist is "Oh, heavens no -- it's nothing special" or something along those lines.

Acknowledging a compliment in Japanese with a "thank you" is by no means the only natural way to respond, and in many situations it can -- on the contrary -- seem inappropriate and smug.

Ken: "What a beautiful house you have!"
Michiko: "Damn right -- and don't you think for a second that I don't know it!"

(Well, maybe not to that extent.)

Elizabeth · 28 Oct 2005

jt_ said:
There's nothing unnatural about the use of とんでもない in the original conversation about the house. Ken has offered a compliment to Michiko about how magnificent her house is, and Michiko responds by denying/downplaying this. The gist is "Oh, heavens no -- it's nothing special" or something along those lines.

Acknowledging a compliment in Japanese with a "thank you" is by no means the only natural way to respond, and in many situations it can -- on the contrary -- seem inappropriate and smug.

Ken: "What a beautiful house you have!"
Michiko: "Damn right -- and don't you think for a second that I don't know it!"

(Well, maybe not to that extent.)

Yes, I was being a little conservative I suppose since I had just personally never heard it in response to anything but being thanked for a favor....

Continuing with the example, if it obviously was a grand house, it seems equally awkward to downplay it to that extent (from an American perspective anyway....).

Elizabeth · 28 Oct 2005

Just out of curiousity I asked my boyfriend about this example as well and whether tondemonai was a "miesuita uso" (transparent lie) in the case of a clearly large house. Koko de wa, "Arigatou. Watashitachi wa sore ga suki desu" no hou ga buji da to omoimasukara. Sore wa omoshiroi bunkatekina chigai desune.

Here is his response :

hontouni ookikutemo 'tondemonai' to iimasu.
'soudesuka arigatou' to iuto amri kashikokunai hito dato
omowaremasu.

Kaminari · 29 Oct 2005

そうですかありがとう do you think so, thank you.. If I have understood that correctly, the downplaying is just about right enough to satisfy English and Japanese both.

りっぱ (impressive, magnificent) doesn't go to size, but to quality.

Elizabeth · 29 Oct 2005

Kaminari said:
そうですかありがとう do you think so, thank you.. If I have understood that correctly, the downplaying is just about right enough to satisfy English and Japanese both.

りっぱ (impressive, magnificent) doesn't go to size, but to quality.

Actually he's saying そうですかありがとう sounds stupid, clueless and unclever in Japanese, although to my credit I suppose I didn't ask about the そうですか part.

epigene · 29 Oct 2005

Elizabeth said:
Actually he's saying そうですかありがとう sounds stupid, clueless and unclever in Japanese, although to my credit I suppose I didn't ask about the そうですか part.

Neither 「そうですか、ありがとう」nor 「ありがとう」is appropriate, because they lack the sense of humility required in Japanese when receiving a compliment.
とんでもない should be said, regardless of how hard you may have worked to get it or how proud you are of it.

Your boyfriend said it's stupid because it shows ignorance of Japanese propriety and common sense (provided that it is said by a Japanese native speaker, of course--tolerated when said by foreigners).

When you give a gift (that you probably paid dearly for) to a person, you say: つまらない物ですが・・・ (it's something worthless)
Note: This is said most commonly when giving gifts as protocol (such as New Year or summer-season "chugen" gifts) and does not apply to true person-to-person gifts from the heart (such as birthday gifts).

HTH!

Elizabeth · 29 Oct 2005

epigene said:
Neither 「そうですか、ありがとう」nor 「ありがとう」is appropriate, because they lack the sense of humility required in Japanese when receiving a compliment.
とんでもない should be said, regardless of how hard you may have worked to get it or how proud you are of it.

Your boyfriend said it's stupid because it shows ignorance of Japanese propriety and common sense (provided that it is said by a Japanese native speaker, of course--tolerated when said by foreigners).

When you give a gift (that you probably paid dearly for) to a person, you say: つまらない物ですが・・・ (it's something worthless)
Note: This is said most commonly when giving gifts as protocol (such as New Year or summer-season "chugen" gifts) and does not apply to true person-to-person gifts from the heart (such as birthday gifts).

HTH!

Yes, it does. Thanks, @epigene . English depends more on the case, but an understated thank you is usually taken well if it is in a modest tone often followed by a self-depreciating comment.

Although I have also been told arigatou is also most appropriate in Japanese after being complimented on how good your language skills are, what a good meal you just ate, etc.

The part I was having difficulty coming to terms with in this example was the blatentness of the denial that the house was indeed "rippa" or "ookina," and what I take from your explanation is that 'humble expressions' like tondemonai are more as a way of relating to the other party than a literal statement of fact.

Please correct anything I've managed to confuse even more.

epigene · 29 Oct 2005

Yes, you understand it correctly, Elizabeth!

Elizabeth · 29 Oct 2005

Your boyfriend said it's stupid because it shows ignorance of Japanese propriety and common sense (provided that it is said by a Japanese native speaker, of course--tolerated when said by foreigners).

Everyone needs someone like him. I remember one of the first times I was in Japan several years ago staying in a hotel and the cleaning staff rescued some valuables from the trash. I stupidly said something like please tell her "Douzo yoroshiku onegai to tsutaete kudasai" thinking that meant "Give her my regards" or "Please continue treating me well," to the front desk man who was a little embarrassed even from a foreigner. Of course arigatou would have been correct in this case, unless I had truly been inconvenienced. :sorry: :sorry:

Elizabeth · 30 Oct 2005

調べの結果、『いいえ、とんでもないです。」より
「そんな、とんでもないです。」と言えばもっと自然でしょう。

もちろん、単なる謙遜の言葉（自分を下において減りくだった表現）
として意味で使われているという表現は依然として残っています。

そして、英語でも直訳で「Not so much, not really」のほうが
『Not at all, heavens no]より自然に聞こえると思います。

たぶん、「とんでもない（です）」は、もっとくだけた言い方ですね。
丁寧だし、謙遜するときに「とんでもございません。」は使うだけでしょう。

Simple english(sorta) that doesn't translate easily

Kaminari

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bentenmusume

原点回帰

Elizabeth

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Elizabeth

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Kaminari

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Elizabeth

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epigene

相変わらず不束者です

Elizabeth

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epigene

相変わらず不束者です

Elizabeth

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Elizabeth

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