Sexuality

[Mars Man]

Well gentlemen, if I could get you to please let this present sub-section be set aside so that we may be able to try to focus a little closer as we adjust the angles of what we are looking at, in order to try to make out just what it is.

Scorpion da black san, I have printed out most of the pages, and have gone over them. I would now like to ask that you please expound on a few points in detail, with back-up source information. (since you at least have not given any clue that you have accepted any of the total sum of posts I have made relative to this subject both here and on that other thread to have been valid claims)

Let's please discuss it fully then. In the field of sexology and genetics and neurology, the sex state is divided into to two areas. One is the genetic state, and the other is the biological state.

The question is, then, do you have any valid reason to assert that what has been stated over and over again in a good number of works by major players in this field, is invalid, or incorrect? And if you deem that it is incorrect, can you please show us in detail then, just how that is so--using detail that at least equals what I have presented? (I am not going to question the language medium, I'll trust you there)

Let's please analyse these points one by one, so first, please deal only with the above. (I trust for less background noise while this is underway)

 

[yumeitsumo]

I say if you love someone it doesn't matter if they're the same sex or not. And that's the way it is. Cuz I'm in love with my Alison!!

 

[Eponine]

We don't have gay people here. I have never met any. I believe this has to do with the fact that the Spaniards massacred everyone that wasn't a good Catholic during the Holy Inquisition. You can't be Catholic and gay. The Church prohibits it. Gayness being hereditary (so do doctors say), gay genes have been wiped out of this region. If they weren't killed, they fled to the Netherlands or the USA, which explains that both countries have so many of them now.

Don't worry mate, I'm going to Belgium next month and being an evil Bisexual will naturally infect as many people as I can

Scorpion da Black, listen to the sexy red haired man, he's being very concise about why your arguments are a pile of w***.

 

[Goldiegirl]

The problem is that you can't have a serious, intelligent, scientific discussion if religion is the basis for the right or wrongness of sexuality (or any topic for that matter). People who can't think outside their religion can not accept anything different. I don't find that hard to understand. I think it leads for a very limited life, but that is their choice. They don't have to use science to prove or disprove their points, that's not what religion is based on. How do you argue with that? It's like trying to prove the existence of God, faith can't be proved....

 

[yumeitsumo]

faith can't be proved....

THank you. THat's what I've wanted to say. THanks soooo much!

 

[Haruspex]

They don't have to use science to prove or disprove their points, that's not what religion is based on. How do you argue with that? It's like trying to prove the existence of God, faith can't be proved....

Yes, I agree 100%, its impossible to have a proper argument like that.
Its like shooting air-water missiles on solid ground.
We don't really have a method to counter something that cannot be proven false because it cannot be proven right either.
But if we're that very sacral, since Im not saying that some kind of greater being doesn't exist (nor am I saying that he does, hell knows), I think, "God" doesn't give a damn about sexual orientation at all. If he did everyone would be the same. And if he does care about it, Im voting for re-election.

If homosexuality is wrong, we're all going to hell, if something such irrelevant is a sin, what would you call Jerry Springer, reality shows, the whole media, etc.
The list is endless.

 

[scorpion da black]

i am still in the process of learning mars man san..
if i happen to have a good argument then i will post it...
if i find that what you provided is the only scientific fact there is then i will take it...
it will take me two days at most..
expect more arguments from me or embracing your line of thought

 

[Mars Man]

if i happen to have a good argument then i will post it...

Learning is such a very, very important process; therefore I encourage you in that ! The ability to cognize at x level of coherence is not, most unfortunately, so much a thing that is learnable, so do be careful of bias reporting in your studies.

With the above statement, of course, I think it only fair to admit that up until now you have not had a good argument for your earlier statements.

if i find that what you provided is the only scientific fact there is then i will take it...

Please keep in mind that the arguments I have presented are mostly the balances of the total arguments in the field. I have come across the observations that some have yet insisted on the older 'Freudian theories' which while sound in a degree, have been shown to also lack knowledge that we have now.

There are some who seem to give no value to the more obvious understanding that plasticity also weighs in. (which is why some homosexuals do remap their brains with therapy) Therefore please try to collect a balance, the full range of papers and studies.

Now I really feel that it would probably take more than two days to do a good job. The internet may not be as good a source (unless you happen to have membership with some organizations) and I would strongly suggest a visit to a good library.

I'll wait. Again, we are simply looking at what overall understanding the facts most reasonably, logically lead to, in order to understand the state. I kind of wonder though about your seemingly distrust of the information I have given here, from the sources, scientists, professors, and doctors themselves.

 

[Mars Man]

I have bumped this up for a number of reasons, one of which is to keep the information 'in the neighborhood,' and another is to make my closing arguments on the most secure understanding by those in the field.

Firstly, I would like to again quote Alfred C. Kinsey, from his work Sexual Behavior in the Human Male:

Males (speaking of genetic males here) do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not divided into sheeps and goats. Not all things are black and white. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deal with discrete categories. Only the human mind invents categories and tries to force facts into separate pigeon-holes. The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects. The sooner we learn this conserning human sexual behavior, the sooner we whall reach a sound understanding of the realities of sex. (p 639)​

Next is a very well-rounded and fully examined observation by Steven Pinker:

Autism, dyslexia, language delay, language imparment, learning disability, left-handedness, major depressions, bipolar illness, absessive-compulsive disorder, sexual orientation, and many other conditions run in families, are more concordant in identical twins, are better predicted by people's biological relatives than adoptive relatives, and are poorly predicted by any measurable feature of environment. (p46)窶｡@​

Studies have pointed out, and been replicated well enough to substantiate the understanding that there are brain anatomical differences in the sexual dimorphic nucleus (SDN)in human subjects and that of male sheep. This correlates with the finding that the SDN in women is smaller than that in heterosexual men--on average. 窶｡A

All studies lead to the conclusion that the genetic sex boils down to gamates, and from there, the combinations of chromosomes X and Y. (not always with just one of each as pointed out earlier) These determine the physical build in most cases (sometimes not appearing until after puberty) and also due to events in the arly embryonic stage, usually the biological sex state too. (the brain's disposition)

The conclusion here is clear; a physically built female (XX, XXX, XO) does not demand a fully biological female--and yet it is all the work of nature. Likewise, a physically built male (XY, XYY, XYYY) does not demand a fully biological male--and yet it is a work of nature. Thus a female body of XX having a male dispositioned brain is perfectly natural, and a male body of XY having a female dispositioned brain is perfectly natural, and any combinations in between these two extremes are also perfectly natural.

Homosexuality, therefore, is as much a part of nature as heterosexuality and asexuality are. It is just as much a part of nature as those species which clone themselves, or have two sexes, or which change sexual states. The propensity in mammals (for now) to fluxuate between the two, male and female, biologically, is the way nature is made. Homosexuality is uncommon, but, it is natural fact.




窶｡@ This is supported also by Introduction to the Complex Genetics of Mental Disorders in BIOLOGICAL PSYCHIATRY Vol 45, by S.E. Hyman, '99, pp518-621 and The Genetic Basis Of Complex Human Behaviors in SCIENCE Vol 264, by R. Plomin & M. McGuffin et al., pp1733-1739; ﾂ ﾂ 窶｡A The Psychology of Gender and Sexuality by W. & R. Rogers, 2001, p27; Journal Endocrinology as reported on in The Daily Yomiuri Science section, p12, March 23, 2004;

 

[Annubis]

I would also like to define something here:

Sex = biological, referring to the reproductive functions of a species
Gender = psychological, referring to the electro-chemical signals in the brain

One can choose their gender, but one can not choose their sex.

When discussing a female or male disposition in the brain, we must take into account that this disposition is electro-chemical, and can be changed at will, with training.

 

[Mars Man]

When discussing a female or male disposition in the brain, we must take into account that this disposition is electro-chemical, and can be changed at will, with training.

Well, uh...actually, Annubis chan, the data very strongly leans in the other direction in most cases. Of course taking that you have read over the entire thread carefully, I wonder what sources of information may have lead you in that direction?

In papers, journals, and literature on the subject in the field, we'll find genetical sex and brain sex...these two. Brain sex is a continuum, therefore no black and white states...a continuum.

 

[Annubis]

sex and gender

I know that Mars has a thread going about the brain! It is wonderful and I am always checking for new posts. Though, since he is an expert in the field, and I am not, I hope he can explain the chemicals and parts of the brain that lead to sexual orientation... in that particular thread, that is. Not here.

Here, I am curious about the sex hormones, and the way our body reacts to these hormones. Also, I am interested in the psychological training we undertake from birth to the present. We are conditioned to believe that we belong to a particular gender. In many cases, with such training, we can psyco-sematically produce the appropriate hormones and chemicals in the brain to engender a particular sex. The two do coincide greatly - sex and gender. But, today, a woman can choose to be a man and a man can choose to be a woman. There are pills and surgical procedures that can make this metamorphosis happen. In some cases this metamorphosis occurs naturally.

gender is based on the following factors - social, cultural and developmental
sex is based on the following factors - developmental, hormonal and genetic

Sex: (male, female)
When a child is born with ambiguous sex organs
When a child becomes an adult, the hormones grow stronger toward a particular sex
When a person reacts to the pheramonal balance of a person belonging to a particular sex

Gender: (masculine, feminine) (including stereotypes for clear exapmles)
When a person enjoys wearing pink
When a person decides to study science
When a person decides to have sex with a person of the same sex because of the physical attraction.

Both, sex and gender intersect, but I must make it clear, that gender is a choice and a *condition, where as sex is not a choice but can be a *condition (such as a metamorphosis).

*Feminine condition or masculine condition

--forgive me for not being able to give quotes and references. I've only been here 3 months. My texts and such are in Canada. I haven't been able to find a local English library and I rarely use the internet as a source unless it is from a scholarly journal, such as a JREF database, to which I do not have access. Furthermore, my memory doesn't and never has served me very well (Names, titles and dates are very very difficult for me to remember). But I try to the best of my ability to share what I know. Thank you for understanding.

 

[yumeitsumo]

Ya know things change. (now I date a different girl) Am I still considered bisexual even if I am interested in just one girl?

 

[Mavrek]

I am a male guy and like to have straight sex . I my self don't like the other forms of having sex .

 

[Absynthia]

I'm bisexual - I think that says it all
I have few GLB friends.

 

[Dreamweaver]

I'm bisexual... although I'm thinking of redefining myself as 'transsexual' because I don't like how the term 'bisexual' maintains a binary system. It doesn't allow for the real fluidity that exists with sexuality. I've read a number of books on bisexuality, and the whole concept of bisexuality isn't the reliance on liking ONLY men and women, but on eliminating the gender concern altogether.

 

[Gackt21]

The only people in the United States that don't like gays and believe it is sinful are Christian(real Christians), not the ones that just go to church for the heck of it. The ones that believe in Jesus. I pray for those that are lost from the saving grace of god that they will find there way back to him. I was going down that path before I was married because my mother had me convinced I was gay.

 

[Anohito]

Well, this thread just became useless!

 

[Hime]

actually, I did not go through all the replies above....
I myself against the homosexuality, I think its goes against the nature that we were created in from the very start.
I heard that US will allow the homosexuality marriege, and it will allow the the adoption for them........I am sure of that yet, someone correct me if its wrong
I know everyone has some specific beliefs toward the issue, but if we look at it from different side we will find the disadva. more than the adv.....-although I dont see any adv-
like if those couple decide to adopt a child to form what so called a family, can we imagine what kind of nurturing this child will have? having two mothers or two father!!
how this child will look at the society that gave him that kind of family when he compares himself with the other children....

thats my view.......

 

[dreamer]

Well...culturally speaking it might be indeed a problem, but I don't see how it can be worse than having a bad family with both father and mother...
Personally, I'd rather have a kid wonder why he has two fathers or mothers rather than why his father beats him and his mother all the time...

Of course a gay couple might seem somehow unatural but what about humans? Surgery and even civilization also go against nature in a way. We alter our original appearences and use artificial means of producing food or goods using natural ressources. In this case, what might be wrong?

We could debate 10 years about nature versus nurture (are we born homosexual or do we become homosexual?) And so far, no real answer has been unveiled.

Also note that gay marriage is legal in some states already.

 

[Anohito]

The main disadvantage of being homosexual (or bisexual, transgendered, etc.) is the prevalence of anti-gay bigotry. But of course, bigots always tend to use the prevalence of bigotry to justify their bigotry. Bigotry of all sorts is far too common among human animals, and far too often societies will not be willing to identify bigotry as bigotry. For example, in the USA, highly aggressive religious supremacists are routinely allowed to spread propaganda that those who are not Theologically Correct will suffer eternal torment. In the USA, intellectual terrorism is permitted as long as the right groups are practicing it.