Samurai were predominantly Ainu? OFFTOPIC about rape

To Miles7tp, Kaerupop:

If your objection to the idea/theory of Ainu women being forced unwanted sex by Yayoi-Japanese warriors was due to your Ainu ancestry, I can fully understand your emotional reponses. In that case, I owe you an apology. That is provided that you are indeed of Ainu ancestry. Still, shifting your anger towards hapless Koreans was wrong; I hope you clearly understand why you were bashed upon.

Lexico,

Would you object the to statement that the Japanese and Koreans of modern times are descended from the same stock? I ask you, because I already see Miles7tp's beliefs as far as that is concerned.

Honestly, the truth here will never be found. Humanity is so intertwined that it is very hard to lay blame on anyone now living. To blame any current nationality, culture, or ethnic group for acts of terror, such as rape, isn't just mean, it's stupid.

Besides, someone always wants to hide something. None of us are innocent of trying to make ourselves look better.

in the old days in the catholic church it was common to have young boys in the church
some were orphans, others were given to the church for protection by their parents and there were probably innumerable other reasons
these boys were used as sex toys by the priests
the most famous of these were the castrati
even up to 100 years ago nobody said these boys were raped
but according to todays definition, they were definitely raped

we shouldnt dwell so much on the past but deal with the current issues of the day

and who cares who descends from who
some christians believe they all are descendants from adam eve
in japan maybe from amaterasu
scientists believe we came from apes
and even some people believe we came from aliens
but who they hell cares
and if you do, why do you care

why have these arguments that seem to do nothing but stir up animosity
why be so negative all the time
if you think there is a problem go do something about it instead of sitting there at your computer getting angry at people who may be just winding you up

basically - get a life

Common ancestry ?

Kionon said:

Lexico,

Would you object the to statement that the Japanese and Koreans of modern times are descended from the same stock? I ask you, because I already see Miles7tp's beliefs as far as that is concerned.

Honestly, the truth here will never be found. Humanity is so intertwined that it is very hard to lay blame on anyone now living. To blame any current nationality, culture, or ethnic group for acts of terror, such as rape, isn't just mean, it's stupid.

Besides, someone always wants to hide something. None of us are innocent of trying to make ourselves look better.

Click to expand...

Kionon,

I feel uncomfortable discussing genetics or blood ties, not because I believe Koreans are inherently unique, but because it can be twisted around into quite unexpected and irrational conclusions. But to answer your question, No, I would not object to common ancestry. Whether the vast majority of common genes were inherited from one blood groop's direct splitting with minor intermarriages blurring whatever change since the split, or originally two different regional blood groups converging due to long-term intermarriage, I personally view Koreans and Japanese as two groups sharing the greatest number of genetically common traits than with any other blood group, with possibly northern Chinese, the Mongols, the Manchus, and the numerous North East Asian ethnicities ranking 2nd in genetic distance.

What does all this mean to me ? Does having some Chinese blood make me a half-breed deserving contempt ? Would having some Korean blood flowing in their veins make some Chinese shameful because of it ? If some Chinese in ancient times came to what is now Korea to enrich the ancient Koreans with foreign genes, ideas, and culture (or the other way around), should that in any way make me feel inferior/superior ? If some ancient Koreans going over the sea to Japan and intermingling with them make me feel superior to a modern Japanese person ? Or, given the right opporunity, give me some kind of legitimacy to take Japanese land, people and sovereignty by force ?

The reason I try to avoid genetic arguments unless it is within the 'Out of Africa' model of human origin is due to the Classical Racism that lent Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan theoretical legitimacy to invade, control, and anihilate peoples at whim. All recent genetic studies, unfortunately, seem to generate some strange kind of WWII racism, and almost always lure some people into this classical trap of superiority or opposite. Even a subtle remark of people from the continent (China, Korea, wherever) migrating to the Japanese archipelago in ancient times seems to generate uncomfortable feelings in some Japanese people and I can understand that. So why do something that irritates them ?

Nevertheless, if such blood relations could be seen from a totally familial view, what better aid to promote gentleness and to reduce tension and hostility ? Just don't call anyone a slave. Even when enslaved, humn dignity is there, and even a piece of land that was taken as colonial territory due to some historical reason eventually becomes fully independent with it own distinct language and flourishing culture. I wish even the word colony or colonialism were blotted out from our vocabulary due to the negative connotation.

Basically I consider, with some scientific reservation, the Japanese people as a sibling or cousin people of mine. Just save the condescension to themselves if any. But I only hope even that might disappear. I am surprised that there are still people enmeshed in WWII racism 60 years after the war ended. It will be exactly 60 years this coming August. I hope Darwin and Dalton would stop being misinterpreted. I hope history and biology would stop being abused for aggression or cosmetics either symbolic or real, not now, not ever.

Kionon said:

To blame any current nationality, culture, or ethnic group for acts of terror, such as rape, isn't just mean, it's stupid.

Click to expand...

The topic of this thread is not intended to blame current Japanese for something their distant ancestors did. The question is whether part of the mixing was due to rape or not. The hypothesis that it is, is legitimate.

deadhippo said:

we shouldnt dwell so much on the past but deal with the current issues of the day

Click to expand...

As someone who studies history I object!
Anyway, sometimes it's a bit difficult to separate the past from current issues.

and who cares who descends from who

Click to expand...

Eg. historians & geneticists.

why have these arguments that seem to do nothing but stir up animosity

Click to expand...

Should we eradicate history just because there are some people who can't cope with it?

history evolves with us
my point is people are getting worked up in this forum and arguing with each other over matters that are not going to be solved here
if you are so concerned about these issues get off your *** and do something rather than sit in front of your computer proselytizing
maybe i phrased it badly
rather than who cares, i should have said what does it matter
the meaning is that we are all but people
we should learn to forgive and to accept those who are not like us

im not saying forget about history
shouldnt we learn from our mistakes
but use your knowledge in a positive way
i myself am interested in history and prehistory but i have no interest in fighting about it
and i know well that history changes
what he have to remember is that history is not what happened but rather what we say happened

and i dont see how not having pointless arguments will eradicate history but im sure most people have things they would like to erase from their past

The problem is that people always put the blame on somebody else, or another country...instead of looking for the problem with their own.

The Japanese blame the Chinese,Koreans - The Chinese blame the Koreans,Japanese...Where is this all going to ?

miles7tp : If u would like to use english it would be appreciated, as not everyone speaks Japanese.This is an english section, please keep the posts in English or at least translate.Arigatou gozaimasu ! ~

deadhippo said:

arguing with each other over matters that are not going to be solved here
if you are so concerned about these issues get off your *** and do something rather than sit in front of your computer proselytizing

Click to expand...

This is a forum, after all.
Forum (from M-W):
c : a medium (as a newspaper) of open discussion or expression of ideas

It's not about doing something, but discussing.

we should learn to forgive and to accept those who are not like us

Click to expand...

True (to a degree, since we can not force a victim to forgive). But I don't see how this is related to history. History should describe what happened & not give moral judgement.
When we are discussing history, our personal judgement of course comes into play. But I can't see this as something negative, since we wouldn't have much of a discussion if we all were purely objective (&, again, that's what a forum's for: discussion). Anyone who's annoyed or bored by certain topics can easily avoid them.

what he have to remember is that history is not what happened but rather what we say happened

Click to expand...

True (although I would say: History is not what happened, but what historians found out about it & how what they found got interpreted).

i dont see how not having pointless arguments will eradicate history

Click to expand...

I didn't relate your previous statement to this forum only, but to historical debates in general. That's where my response came from.

But if you see it this way, aren't all discussions here pointless (looking up a dead hippo's ***, so to say), according to your definition?

i dont get all your points and dont see how they relate to the quotes but you do have a point
its a forum afterall

i think its the way people are arguing all sure that they are right and conceding that another could be right
when i suspect its really a bunch of immature young adults spouting out some stuff they havent thought through

but its a forum as you say
let them pontificate

I hate to burst your bubble ,guys, BUT there WEREN'T any Samurai during the Yamato period!!! The closest thing they've got were their horse-riding warriors who came from the landbridge that used to connect Japan to Asia.

Furthermore, the samurai were only first established during the late Heian era. The number of political clans rose up, and so did their private armies.

So technically speaking, the samurai NEVER raped the Ainu. It would be correct however to say that the Yamato raped and eventually interbred with the Ainu.

to lexico

You have to read "Annals of Joseon Dynasty"窶卍ｩ窶朗窶ｰﾂ､窶卍ｩﾅｽﾃ?ﾋ弯.
And look at this map.
This map was made in China in 1602.
"Korea is a vassal country of China for a long time."
Can you read Chinese characters?



In 1637, the King of Korea implored forgiveness of the Emperor of Qing(ﾂ青ｴ) on his bended knees.
Korea became a vassal country of Qing.


relievo of ﾅｽO窶彡窶從(the Emperor of Qing ordered the King of Korea to make this relievo.)

If you cannot understand my sentence, you should look at this stone monument at ﾂ静寂?伉ｺ窶慊ｴ in Seoul. (the Emperor of Qing ordered the King of Korea to make this stone monument.)



You have to read "the Treaty of Shimonoseki(1895)".

In 1898, Korea broke "the gate for homage to China" and Korea built "the gate of independence" in celebration of independence from China.

Wrong: you don't get a candy, Kaerupop.

1. The answer is Japan: the three emissaries from the newly established Japan under the cover of Tsushima envoys reported back to the Foreign Ministry that Tsushima was indeed a vassal island of Choson, a Kingdom independent of China. And without Tsushima, Japan had no passport to enter the borders. In fact, Japan was cut off from diplomatic relationship with Choson since Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Nevertheless Choson was graceful enough to share some of its high culture with the Japanese. You should know these things if you've read the Annals of Choson Dynasty 窶卍ｩ窶朗窶ｰﾂ､窶卍ｩﾅｽﾃ?ﾋ弯. So stop bluffing without actually having read the book, alright ?

2. Moriyama Shigeru ﾂ森ﾅｽR窶禿? Sada Hakubo ﾂ住窶彡窶昶?卩?ﾂ? and Saito Ei's ﾃ｢V窶慊｡ﾅｾﾃ report 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ?O窶督ｱﾂ湘遺?卍ｲﾂ債ｸ窶｢窶昶?｢ﾃ ﾂ『窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ?Oﾅ津ｰ窶｢ﾂｶﾂ鞘?伉』 <ﾅ?O窶督ｱﾂ湘按出ﾅｽdﾂ債ｲ窶彡窶昶?卩?ﾂ昶?懌┐ﾆ知窶卍ｩ窶朗ﾅ｡ﾂ?ﾅ津ｰﾂ催崘ｽn窶凪??#20839;窶儺ﾂ鞘?? ﾂ『窶卍ｩ窶朗ﾅ｡ﾂ?ﾅ津ｰﾂ催崘ｽn窶凪??#20839;窶儺ﾂ鞘?伉』 dated April 15, 1870 in compliance to Foreign Ministry directive 'Items to be Studied by the the Emissary Agents to Choson' ﾂ『窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ?Oﾅ津ｰ窶｢ﾂｶﾂ鞘?伉』, 窶佚ｦ2邃｢ﾃ俄?佚ｦ3ﾂ催ｻ, 窶｢ﾂｶﾂ鞘?倪?敕氾･j 574, 1869窶扼11ﾅ椎ｽ1窶愿ｺﾅｽﾅ｡, <ﾅ?O窶督ｱﾂ湘鞍塚?椎?窶伉ｾﾂ青ｭﾅ?ﾂｯ辦ﾅ?ﾂｯﾆ蜘ﾆ知ﾅｽfﾂ鞘?? ﾂ「窶卍ｩ窶朗ﾅ｡ﾂ?ﾆ蜘ﾆ知窶拮ﾅ陳ｭﾋ?ｵﾆ男 窶ｺ窶敞湛ﾆ停?ｹ窶卍ｲﾂ債ｸﾅｽ窶督坂ぎﾅｽw令ﾆ男ﾃｨﾂ脆湛ﾆ停?ｹﾅｽiﾃ｢ﾂ哉男窶抃ﾆ男 窶ｺ窶敞湛ﾆ停?ｹ窶伉ｾﾂ青ｭﾅ?ﾂｯﾆ知ﾅ塚??凖ｨﾂ」, pp.265-268 and ﾂ「窶卍ｩ窶朗ﾅ｡ﾂ?ﾆ蜘ﾆ知窶拮ﾅ陳ｭﾋ?ｵﾆ男窶ｺ窶敞湛ﾆ停?ｹ窶卍ｲﾂ債ｸﾅｽ窶督坂ぎﾅｽw令ﾂ」 Nov. 1 1869.

Ready for some schooling, Kaerupop ?

to lexico

Why do you think Japan asserted the independence of Korea?

Why do you think the Sino-Japanese War happened?

You have to read "the Treaty of Shimonoseki(1895)".

A Page from the History of Japan 窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅｽj

'Japan's expenses for the mission from Choson was 1,000,000 ryuo, 330,000 workers, and 77,600 heads of horses. Among the reasons why the Bakufu received the mission from Choson with such lavishness was to display the authority of the shogun, and in so doing, to become part of the international community of East Asia via Choson, and to import refined Choson culture.'

窶敕ｶ窶慊｡ﾂ青ｳ窶ｰpﾅ?O [窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾅｽj] 窶愬停?ｹﾅｾﾂ鞘?伉静? 1991

edit: Shall we concentrate on the Ainu and Yayoi/Yamato's relationship ?

Why is rape such an issue in Japanese culture regarding the samurai; I think that was the question, not Korea bashing unless you forgot. What do you have in mind ?

to lexico

I never want to talk about a fantasy.
If you want to argue with me, you must show me the historical record or the paper written by a "sane" historian.

What is the graceful culture of Korea(Choson)?
Give me an actual example.
I think it is Chinese culture like Chinese poem(ﾅ?ﾂｿﾅｽﾂ?, Chinese philosophy-Confucianism(ﾅｽﾃｲ窶ｹﾂｳ) and Chinese picture(窶｢ﾂｶﾂ人窶ｰﾃｦ).
:?
Your Japanese history textbook teaches you the historical fact that in Edo era many Chinese people(merchants, scholars, doctors, painters, and Buddhists) lived in Nagasaki and the other district.
ﾂ
Though Japan didn't have diplomatic relations with China in Edo era, Japan was carrying on a brisk trade with China.

the amount of trade(official)

China 100,000Ryo per 1 year

Holland 50,000Ryo per 1 year

Korea(Choson) 18,000Ryo per 1 year


Japanese, Chinese, and Dutchmen enjoyed "Matsuri" in Nagasaki.


I show you one episode.

In 1725, Shogun Yoshimune窶ｹgﾂ宗 ordered the Nagasaki magistrate to buy the replica of "the Chinese picture drawn in Ming era".
A Chinese painter came to Japan.
Yoshimune was surprised. He wanted a picture, not a painter.
The name of the painter is Shin Nanpin窶卍ｾ窶愿ｬﾃ･_. His style of painting was mixture between Chinese style and European style. He painted many pictures in Nagasaki for 3 years. After he went back to China, he sent many pictures to Japan.


painted by Shin Nanpin窶卍ｾ窶愿ｬﾃ･_


Holland brought many goods and animals to Japan.
Many Japanese met European people in Edo and Nagasaki.
They accepted Western culture and science.


In Osaka, European enjoyed automatons窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｭ窶堙ｨ. "Settsu meisho zue" published in 1796


In Kyoto, European enjoyed Tofu窶慊､窶｢窶ｦ. "shui Miyako meisho zue" published in 1787


In Edo, European were enjoyed by Edokkoﾂ江ﾅ津銀?堙?ｽq. Katsushika Hokusai窶徒ﾂ催

Of course, Korea was useful for Japan.
Japanese got the cultivation techniques of "Choson carrot" from Korea. It is a high price medicinal herb even now.


I asked you

Why do you think Japan asserted the independence of Korea?
Why do you think the Sino-Japanese War happened?

Click to expand...

Answer :
This cartoon was drawn in 1887.



Now, I want to say to China, Japan, and Russia,
"Leave it alone. It is very bad-tasting."
:smoke:

I tell you an interesting episode.

There is the gate called "ﾅ津ｵ窶ｰﾂｻ窶禿･" in a Korea king's palace.
This gate has 3 entrances. The central entrance is larger than the other entrances.
Only the King of Korea and the Chinese diplomat could enter the central entrance. Why could the diplomat of China go through the central entrance? Because China was the suzerain of Korea.

the gate called "ﾅ津ｵ窶ｰﾂｻ窶禿･"

At the end of 19 century, Korea opened the country to the world.
The diplomats of many foreign countries except China were prohibited from entering the central entrance.
They were ordered to go through the left.
Enseigaiﾃ･ﾃ債青｢ﾅ?M(a Chinese military commander) who was called a Vice-King of Korea, entered the central entrance.

In 1893 Masami O-ishi窶佚･ﾂ静篠青ｳ窶督､(a Japanese diplomat) went to the palace.
He tried to go through the central entrance.
The Korean military guard stopped him and said, "Sir, please enter the left entrance."
O-ishi said, "Why? A Chinese diplomat enters this entrance."
The Korean military guard said, "China is the suzerain of Korea."
O-ishi laughed loudly and said, "Nonsense! Korea is the independent, isn't it?"
O-ishi went through the central entrance.
All the diplomats protested against Korean government.
Korean government permitted all the diplomats to go through the central entrance.
I think Enseigaiﾃ･ﾃ債青｢ﾅ?M(a Chinese military commander) was very angry.

In 1894 Sino-Japanese War began.
In 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki ended hostilities between Japan and China.
Treaty of Shimonoseki窶ｰﾂｺﾅ?ﾃ鳴湘ｰ窶禿ｱ
Art. 1, China perfectly approves the independence of Korea from China.
Therefore, Korea gained independence from China in 1895.
I have read the Korean history textbook which was translated into Japanese.
I could not find "Treaty of Shimonoseki" in it.
The Korean history textbook never show you the reason why the empire of Korea窶佚･ﾅ?ﾃ倪?凖ｩﾂ坂? founded in 1897.
Many Korean people never know the reason why the gate of independence was built in 1898.
A Korean university student told me that it was built in celebration of independence from Japan.
I pitied him.

You wrote :

Tsushima was indeed a vassal island of Choson

Click to expand...

Tokugawa government had the power to appoint and dismiss the lord (Daimyo Souﾂ宗ﾅｽﾂ? of Tushima.
What can the king of Korea do to the lord of Tushima?
Nothing...
Tokugawa government left the diplomatic negotiations with Korea to the lord of Tushima.
Tokugawa government officers didn't need to go to Korea. It was lucky for Korean government.
Because Seoul was the dirtiest city in Asia.
If you don't know that Seoul was the dirtiest city, read the bookﾂ『窶徒ﾅ?w窶ｹcﾂ』 written by 窶菟ﾂ静??ｰﾃ?a Korean scholar)

for kaerupop

I thank you for that overwhelming information, kaerupop. However you're on the wrong thread! This is a discussion whether or not the Yamato raped the Ainu, not about Chinese/Japanese hegemony in Korea!!! Actually, I see no connection. The Yamato era lasted from 300 BCE to 300 CE, while your topic spanned from the 17th to the 20th century. Quite a long gap, isn't it?

Furthermore, your abysmal English actually degraded the credibility of your post. Though it is chock-full of images, comics, yadda-yadda; I still can't understand what you're implying in the first place!! If I were you, I wouldn't post. We don't want misunderstandings to arise, do we?

In Filipino: PUTANG INA MO!!! Sa susunod, ayusin mo naman ang Inggles mo!! BWISIT KA!! Wala akong naintindihan sa sinasabi mo!! CHUPAIN MO NA LANG SI KIM JONG IL!!!!

In short, if you can't contribute to the discussion proper, get out of this thread!

By the way, why don't you come here to the Philippines? There's a lot of Koreans here trying to learn English.

kaerupop said:

Tokugawa government had the power to appoint and dismiss the lord (Daimyo Souﾂ宗ﾅｽﾂ? of Tushima....
Tokugawa government left the diplomatic negotiations with Korea to the lord of Tushima.

Click to expand...

If you want to get technical, let's put two and two together, alright ?

quoting Kaerupop:

1. Tsushima represented Tokugawa in it's relationship to Choson

quoting Chosenkoku kosai shimatsu naitansho (Report on Confidential Inquiry into Korea's Foreign Relations):

2. "Second, concerning the question of Tsushima being governed by Choson and receiving its aid, Tsushima is apparently a vassal in the Korean system as it has received the copper seals (tosa, tosho) from Korea. Furthermore, Tsushima receives fifty sok (goku) of rice and beans every year, a most significant fact symbolizing the status of a vassal.

Tokugawa becomes a vassal state of Choson by reason of 1. and 2. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

EDIT: As Shizu Seraph aptly pointed out, let's get back on topic. He actually raised an important question:

"What about the anachronism of Yayoi/Yamato, the samurai, and the Ainu ?"
If the definitions are out of synch, all ensuing discussions can only end in futility.

to Shizu Seraph

What?
My post is an adverse opinion against lexico's nonsensical post.
And it is related to "Sinocentrism".
Did you read miles7tp's opinion?

Ainu is the people who has Ainu culture.
In 1264, 1284-1286, 1297-1305, Ainu fought against Mongolia in Sakhalin and near Khabarovsk.
Japanese and Ainu have the common ancestor(Jomon people).

I give you a figure.

to lexico

So what?
Do you believe that Tokugawa becomes a vassal state of Choson?
Do Korean scholars have the same opinion as you?

Interesting chart, kaerupop. Do you have a reference for this ?

1. According to your chart, are the Gilyak-Nivx also ancestral to Ainu ?

2. According to your chart, the zoku-Jomons, the Satsumons, and the pre-Ainus split around the 12th century CE. Then why is it that the linguistic evidence place Japanese and Korean closer than Japanese and Ainu ? On this particular point, there seems to be a concensus among scholars such as John Street 1962, Andrew Roy Miller 1971, James Patrie 1982, and S. Hattori 1959 ? As for Hattori in particular it can be said as I posted here,

"On the basis of lexicostatistical studies suggested that if Japanese, Korean, the Altaic family, and Ainu are indeed descended from a common parent language, then the time distance of splitting between those listed would have to be


with the left most Japanese and the right most Ainu splitting around 10,000 years BP (Hattori 1959, Nihongo no keitoo. Tokyo. Iwanami)."

Why is it that historical linguistic analyses dealing with Japanese & Korean invariably place Japanese & Korean as the two closest languages, while placing Ainu quite distant, even further removed than the Altaic languages such as Manchu-Tungusic, Mongolian, and Turkic languages ?

The chart you linked, if it is a faithful representation of genetic relationship understood by Japanese scholars, is quite contradictory with the general understanding presented by decades of linguistic research by international scholars of good standing.

kaerupop said:

So what?
Do you believe that Tokugawa becomes a vassal state of Choson?
Do Korean scholars have the same opinion as you?

Click to expand...

Please be reminded that my two quotes are both Japanese sources. I only pointed out that if A < B, and B <= C, then A < C where < stands for vassal relationship and <= stands for diplomatic representation. Thanks to you, Tokugawa Japan (C) is proven to be a vassal state of Choson (A) via Tsushima (B). Not that is means much, but you seemed to be interested in technicalities.

Remember, it was you who said "the lord of Tsushima was appointed by Tokugawa gov't to represent Japan," not me.

Edit: As Kirename reaffirms, as Shizu Seraph points out, and I fully back their opinion, I suggest you drop it, kaerupop. Let's get back on topic of Ainu and Samurai relations.

I think we're getting way off topic... And this was already an OT thread.

Let's not antagonize, children.