Rows & columns

[mdchachi]

When you discuss spreadsheets in Japan, do you use the same word for rows & columns such as Aの列 and 一の列? Or is it differentiated as it is in English?

 

[Majestic]

The horizontal rows are 行 , and they would be counted as 1行目、2行目、3行目 etc.
The vertical columns are 列, and they would be counted as 1列目、2列目 etc...

 

[mdchachi]

Ah, right. 行 slipped my mind. But it seems it's not entirely intuitive considering they have a whole section on how to remember the difference here:

スプレッドシートで行・列の挿入、削除、移動する方法 | クラサポ

Googleスプレッドでシートで行・列を挿入、削除、移動する手法について解説

closuppo.com

 

[bentenmusume]

I'm not sure how it's not "intuitive"?
行 are (horizontal) rows, 列 are (verbs) columns. The words are as distinct as the English ones, and they're not interchangeable.

The page in question seems to be a tutorial on how to perform operations with rows and columns, not an explanation of how to "remember the difference" between 行
and 列.

edited to add: I suppose there is one section explaining the difference, but I consider this the equivalent of a "for dummies" tutorial which explains every simple thing just for clarity's purpose. The average Japanese person would not be confused about the difference between 行 and 列.

 

[mdchachi]

I'm not sure how it's not "intuitive"?
行 are (horizontal) rows, 列 are (vertical) columns. The words are as distinct as the English ones, and they're not interchangeable.

The page in question seems to be a tutorial on how to perform operations with rows and columns, not an explanation of how to "remember the difference" between 行
and 列.

edited to add: I suppose there is one section explaining the difference, but I consider this the equivalent of a "for dummies" tutorial which explains every simple thing just for clarity's purpose. The average Japanese person would not be confused about the difference between 行 and 列.

Why do all the dictionary entries include "row" and "column" in the definition of 列 then? When is it used to mean "row"?

 

[bentenmusume]

As a general rule, I don't really like to overanalyze the results of Jisho.org or any J-E dictionary that just lists a bunch of English definitions devoid of context.
You could have, just for one example, a bunch of people (or houses), trees, etc. lined up in a "row" and describe that as 列.

And, I mean, isn't it the same in English, too? The words "row" and "column" have a distinct meaning in the context of spreadsheet applications, (horizontal vs. vertical), but if you're just talking about a row of houses or whatever, that's not saying anything about horizontality/verticality.

It's the same in Japanese. Regardless of what you could describe as 行 or 列 in a real-world sense, the meanings in the context of a software application are completely distinct and unambiguous.

 

[mdchachi]

As a general rule, I don't really like to overanalyze the results of Jisho.org or any J-E dictionary that just lists a bunch of English definitions devoid of context.
You could have, just for one example, a bunch of people (or houses), trees, etc. lined up in a "row" and describe that as 列.

And, I mean, isn't it the same in English, too? The words "row" and "column" have a distinct meaning in the context of spreadsheet applications, (horizontal vs. vertical), but if you're just talking about a row of houses or whatever, that's not saying anything about horizontality/verticality.

It's the same in Japanese. Regardless of what you could describe as 行 or 列 in a real-world sense, the meanings in the context of a software application are completely distinct and unambiguous.

Well again, if it were so unambiguous there wouldn't be so much need for explanations about it, would there?
Here's another: 【小ネタ】もう迷わない！Excelの「行」と「列」の3つの覚え方 | Excelを制する者は人生を制す
On the other hand, I guess there are also English pages explaining the difference between "row" and "column" so maybe it's really not so much different after all.

 

[bentenmusume]

Yeah, I mean, all I'm saying is that it's basically the same as English. If you asked anyone who's familiar with spreadsheets, they'll understand the difference between rows and columns. At the same time, it might not be intuitive to someone who is only familiar with the "real-world" definitions of the word and doesn't use Excel, etc. at all.

I just tend to push back against this idea that there's something uniquely vague, ambiguous, and exotic about the Japanese language.

 

[mdchachi]

I just tend to push back against this idea that there's something uniquely vague, ambiguous, and exotic about the Japanese language.

If I'm not mistaken, you're one of the ones here who claim that Japan and English often can't be mapped one-to-one.

Anyway as this is a very important topic, I'm also providing a video tutorial to help you remember the difference here. (Which is basically the same thing said in the other article except somebody actually went to the effort of making a video about it.)

行と列の違い（比較チャート付き） - ブログ 2023

行と列の主な違いについては、この記事で説明します。 行とは、人、物、または人物を並べたり、直線に並べたりする順序です。 事実、図、またはカテゴリに基づくその他の詳細の垂直区分は、列と呼ばれます。

ja.weblogographic.com

 

[bentenmusume]

Haha, well, I'd just like point out for the record that people have made web pages and, yes, even video tutorials explaining the difference between Excel "rows" and "columns" in English as well, so I think all this proves is that some people really need their hand held when it comes to computer stuff.

(If I recall correctly, you're in the IT field, right? Surely you've dealt with people who need to be told how to power on their PC, people who see "Press any key" and get confused because their keyboard doesn't have an "any" key, et cetera )

And of course it's true Japanese and English often don't map one-to-one, but the specific context of whether or not the Japanese language has two distinct words to refer to (horizontal) rows and (vertical) columns in the context of spreadsheets is, fortunately, one of the rare times that they do.

 

[Toritoribe]

I totally agree with bentenmusume-san. The first line of a text is 一行目 whether it's in vertical or horizontal writing, and there is no problem with 横の列. However, 行 and 列 are distinct in Excel.

Those explanations are made because 行 and 列 are ambiguous in the sense of "vertical vs. horizontal" in general, but users need to remember the terms correctly since they are strictly distinguished in Excel.