Respect

[FrustratedDave]

I don't see the contradictions you're talking about. I said, or maybe I should say meant to stress more emphatically, was that translations were possible, the core meaning of the word didn't necessarily change (based on dictionaries & people I've spoken with) but 'respect' as a term was hardly used in Japanese for the cultural reasons already stated so that it isn't a natural expression.

What you're doing now I assume is trying a different take on what you've done before -- using a softer, less direct approach for these problems ?

I agree the meaning may not be that different, but the impact that this word has is definately different in Japanese. I think anyone who learns another langauge has certain expressions they wish to say from their native langauge to really get the message that want across, however sometimes these have the oppisite effect as you may already know.I realize that no matter how much you want something to work eg, using certain expressions from your own langauge , to covey a clearer picture for the opposite party does not always have the desired effect. However, sometimes unknown to the non-native that there is are expresions that express the same desired meaning in a completetly different line of words ( something that unlless was explained to you ,you would have difficulty understanding why it translates as the expression you were looking for) , I was hoping there was something like this in regards to the word "respect" , hense my intial please no "窶卍ｼ窶禿ｳ" expressions please.

 

[Elizabeth]

I agree the meaning may not be that different, but the impact that this word has is definately different in Japanese. I think anyone who learns another langauge has certain expressions they wish to say from their native langauge to really get the message that want across, however sometimes these have the oppisite effect as you may already know.I realize that no matter how much you want something to work eg, using certain expressions from your own langauge , to covey a clearer picture for the opposite party does not always have the desired effect. However, sometimes unknown to the non-native that there is are expresions that express the same desired meaning in a completetly different line of words ( something that unlless was explained to you ,you would have difficulty understanding why it translates as the expression you were looking for) , I was hoping there was something like this in regards to the word "respect" , hense my intial please no "直訳" expressions please.

I understand all that and if you needed a general term analogous to 'respect,' that doesn't appear to exist. If you needed something more context specific, the situation for the expression to be effective needed to be explained in clear and logical detail.

In the absence of that, I sincerely hope you've found some of these suggestions useful but any translation advice really does become a process of hit and miss reading into the various insinuations. Yet, as you've indicated, surely those gentler, nuanced alternatives are well known already....

奥が深い 言語です。

 

[FrustratedDave]

I understand all that and if you needed a general term analogous to 'respect,' that doesn't appear to exist. If you needed something more context specific, the situation for the expression to be effective needed to be explained in clear and logical detail.
In the absence of that, I sincerely hope you've found some of these suggestions useful but any translation advice really does become a process of hit and miss reading into the various insinuations. Yet, as you've indicated, surely those gentler, nuanced alternatives are well known already....
奥が深い 言語です。

Don't worry about that, every single post was of some help in some way after reading and re-reading again and again.

I should have explained in more detail and I am the first to admit that my English has suffered quite a bit, as a lot of my Japanese expresions and thoughts do get translated directly back into English, to the dismay of my parents ect,ect (Sometimes it takes quite a bit longer to relate what I am saying, when normaly it could be done in twice the amount of time、in English that is).

It has no relevance to this thread ,but due to the work that I am in, I rarely talk to other English speakers. The last time I did was about 8 months ago when I talked to a guy who lives relatively near me and that was only a "how you doing" and " whats been going on" sort of discussion when we were stoped at traffic lights.

確かに奥が深い 言語でしたよね。。。

 

[Petenshber]

It sounds to me like you should just phrase it to the situation at hand, like if someone is addressing someone disrespectfully such as calling them "old man" or even "idiot", why not tell them they shouldn't use such words when addressing "such and such", and remind them of what they should say? That should explain things without sounding high and mighty and without using the actual word "respect".
But then what do i know?
I'll be quiet now.

 

[FrustratedDave]

It sounds to me like you should just phrase it to the situation at hand, like if someone is addressing someone disrespectfully such as calling them "old man" or even "idiot", why not tell them they shouldn't use such words when addressing "such and such", and remind them of what they should say? That should explain things without sounding high and mighty and without using the actual word "respect".
But then what do i know?
I'll be quiet now.

There are situations like that can be delt with like you say. But, there are also times when finesse is needed, you can't expect people to take crap from there boss when they don't have an explanation as to why their boss wants it done a certain way. (do this and do that mentality won't get you very far for very long. Or did I miss-interpret your statement?) It is the same any where, poeple have there own oppinions on how to handle a situation in work and in private, but when that conflicts with a person in authority at work is when the problem arises. It is then nessessary to explain as to why things need to be done a certain way and 9 times out of 10 even if they do not agree with that idea people will follow the regulations set out if the time is taken to explain to them personaly. On the other hand if you do not all you will get is a bunch of unhappy people doing the bare minimum so as they can get their pay check.

Thanks for the thought though.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

I was thinking about this, and if the employee is being disrespectful of a patient, this might work.

The patient is your customer, no? He or she is paying money for your services, no?

Remind your employee of that fact. お客様は神様だ！(The customer is always right)

 

[Elizabeth]

There are situations like that can be delt with like you say. But, there are also times when finesse is needed, you can't expect people to take crap from there boss when they don't have an explanation as to why their boss wants it done a certain way. (do this and do that mentality won't get you very far for very long. Or did I miss-interpret your statement?) It is the same any where, people have there own opinions on how to handle a situation in work and in private, but when that conflicts with a person in authority at work is when the problem arises. It is then necessary to explain as to why things need to be done a certain way and 9 times out of 10 even if they do not agree with that idea people will follow the regulations set out if the time is taken to explain to them personally. On the other hand if you do not all you will get is a bunch of unhappy people doing the bare minimum so as they can get their pay check.
Thanks for the thought though.

I don't think what Petenshber intended to say was that reminding employees of the proper to address their customers was giving those people crap without explanation. I mean, how many Japanese require a fine tuned discussion on the logic of keigo ? That's their life after all and the mentality behind what they've grown up to always expect.

But yeah definetely 部下にどなって命令しないで。言って聞かせなさいね。

 

[FrustratedDave]

I don't think what Petenshber intended to say was that reminding employees of the proper to address their customers was giving those people crap without explanation. I mean, how many Japanese require a fine tuned discussion on the logic of keigo ? That's their life after all and the mentality behind what they've grown up to always expect.
But yeah definately 従業員（こども）を命令しないで。言って聞かせなさいね 。

Keigo is not needed when talking to your staff. But yes it needs to be explained to freshmen entering the workforce. Just b/c they are Japanese does not automatically mean they can all speak keigo/kensongo/sonkeigo/teineigo/kenjyougo and understand why it needs to be used. But,I hope you don't think that is what I have been asking all along?

 

[FrustratedDave]

I was thinking about this, and if the employee is being disrespectful of a patient, this might work.
The patient is your customer, no? He or she is paying money for your services, no?
Remind your employee of that fact. お客様は神様だ！(The customer is always right)

Of course that is true and is what I keep reminding them. But it is in the situation with attitudes towards superiors.

In English we also use the word disrespect/disrespectful (失礼/無礼), but this word carries a whole different feeling when being used in Japanese and is used in a wide variety of situations here. But in English it is the opposite to respect and carries with it a certain amount of weight. I just don't think the word can be used or translated like it is in English, is that a surprise? No, b/c that is what I figured before I posted, but anything is worth looking further into as you never know what you will come up with.

 

[Elizabeth]

Keigo is not needed when talking to your staff. But yes it needs to be explained to freshmen entering the workforce. Just b/c they are Japanese does not automaticaly mean they can all speak keigo/kensongo/sonkeigo/teineigo/kenjyougo and understand why it needs to be used.

そうですね。細かすぎて、普通の人には分類できないものも出てくると思いますそうですね。

But,I hope you don't think that is what I have been asking all along?

Although I'm pretty sure they can understand and use teineigo....No, was responding to Petenshber's comment re rudeness to patients (I'm assuming that was the target being referenced). Of course your employees will need training to reach the point with their own speech that you need them to be at. On the other hand, civility must be deteriorating faster than I realized if they argue on the necessity of using high language at all.